Breeding Black-eye Gold BN Plecos

[Melody]

I've had accidental spawning of BN's before, and I've tried to facilitate it in the big tank but that amounted mostly to making sure they had caves.

This time they're in a smaller tank so I've decided to put some effort into it all, plus I want to do some experimenting with vegie protein. I bought a spawning cave & that's been added. They're not quite mature yet by the looks of them. One is much smaller than the other two so I'm hoping the sexes are mixed. I don't see much for bristles so I could have all females for all I know. If that's the case I'll be trying to get more so I might as well get this all down anyways.

I'm going to condition them on both seafood and vegie protein, along with homemade food.

Any tips for spawning BN's? I don't do Plecos other than the BN's & Rubberlip, so I'm sure there's things I don't know.

They sure grow slow :rolleyes: . However, I keep hearing about people who think they're too small to spawn but they surprise them, so I'm hoping with the right foods I may get a surprise. :D

Here's some of the stars when they were younger:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-BlackeyeGoldBNb.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-BlackeyeGoldBN2.jpg

Thanks!

[CACAdmin]

Are they ever cute! I've never seen gold ones before. Best of luck with getting them to spawn.

[Melody]

They're amelanistic - they don't have dark body pigment so the color ends up a very pretty yellow gold.:smile:

[CACAdmin]

Cool! So does this mean by babies will be the same or is there a possibility that they will throw different colored ones?

[Melody]

Should breed true, although there is a slight possibility of a dark patch on some - very rare. A throw back to the outcross, according to a breeder. There was only one amelanistic male found so he was crossed to a regular female. Apparently that's what creeps in occasionally. All hearsay but it makes sense. :yes:

[madattiver]

Bristlenose are fairly easy to spawn.. and sometimes follow the same triggers as corys to spawn.. lots of heavy feeding.. make sure you provide them a cave.. then a cool water change to drop the temps several degrees.. and that sometimes is all it takes to kick them into spawning mode.

ohh and if you have any other questions.. just ask away.. but only if i am able to be on the list for fry ;)

[Melody]

Thanks for the info. I can't do much about the temp as they're in an unheated tank and that's pretty chilly as it is. Here's a bad shot of one in their new cave:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-BlackeyeGoldBN-Cave.jpg

I think this may be a male. The flash popped the yellow out. They're more gold now than in the above pic's, but not quite THAT much more....lol:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-BlackeyeGoldBN3.jpg

Fry isn't a prob - there's a couple of people working on them here so the market will round out nicely soon.:smile: I am trying more to test the vegie protein theory than anything. :rolleyes:

[Melody]

:rofl: Here is 2 and a quarter of them. I dropped a Bottom Bite in and it landed in the shell....lol.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-BlackeyeGoldBN4.jpg

[CACAdmin]

That's priceless... dive in head first and nobody else stands a chance of getting THAT bottom bite! :laugh:

[Melody]

He/she finally came out and just sat there on the opening, shoving anyone who happened by. Probably got it pushed down in there too far and decided that if he can't have it, nobody can. :laugh: I have a pic of that too, but I didn't want to go overboard.

[Pamelajo]

What I have noticed with my bns: Once you can get them to breed they continue to spawn regularly with no encouragement from me. With all mine the only thing I can get them to spawn in is barnacles. :Confused: I have tried a number of different sized clay pots and sauces, breeding tubes, coconut caves etc. I know others have got them to spawn in various objects but mine won't seem to take to anything else. My long finned has not spawned since the first time with unknown mother, and they turned out the be the short-finned. Last week I removed all but the long finned and added a barnacle and with in two days he had taken over it and now has eggs in there he is guarding.
One thing I did notice in my other tank which I had a low temp in 70 - 72 is the babies grow a lot slower. Another tank with temp at 75 had babies a month later and they are the same size as the ones in the colder tank. Fed exactly the same and both have snails in their tanks.
One other thing I have done is remove the females from tanks to give male a rest in between batches, but recently left the female in two different tanks to see how fast they would spawn again. They did not spawn again for over a month in both tanks, so they seem to know if enough to take a break with out my help.

Good luck with yours.

[Melody]

I do still have two Barnacles but I haven't got around to figuring out a way to round the edges - I'm afraid they'll cut themselves. I guess the water does it. Do they go down into them through the top? I'm surprised they like them - must be harder to keep the babies in with all of those holes....lol...but maybe mine have more broken tips than yours. I know another breeder who could only get them to spawn in a huge shell I sent her - guess they like that 'shell' type of atmosphere.

The heat factor seems to happen in many species. Mine are in an unheated tank so I'm sure you're onto something with their slow growth rate too. Tropical temps shouldn't artifically speed growth to a point of shortening their lifespan as long as it doesn't go above the average, so I'll definitly use a heater.

Very helpful, thanks Pam!

[Pamelajo]

Mine go down into one of the tubes of the barnacle and hang tail out. I was worried about the rough edges especially with the LF but have seen no evidence of injury on any of the bns. I have had the odd one stuck before when his fins would not let him back out, but was able to rescue them and were not worse for wear. Most of them seem to know whether they can fit. But had two get stuck and one got stuck twice took him a little longer to catch on. Or he thought he was smaller that he really was.:laugh:

[Melody]

LOL Maybe they were like mine and started eating while in there and grew. I suppose they're smarter than we think with such things - they survive in the wild without me fussing over edges after all. I figure the snails move so slow that they'd realize its sharp and just not climb there. I'm going to add one today. I've been anxious to put them in the tanks, but not anxious enough to silicone edges :laugh: .

[Melody]

Just an update, everyone has taken a growth spurt with the extra rich food & a few extra water changes. As mentioned, my main interest in spawning them is to test the vegetable protein theory, so I've been concentrating on that.

They are fed Bottom Bites every second night, which are probably around 70% vegetables & seaweed/algae (I should figure that out next time I make them). The rest is fresh & freeze-dried seafood, along with some high-quality commercial foods, baby cereal & cornmeal to help the binding process. There's also misc. herbs, garlic, vitamins, calcium, fish oil (Omega 3), etc.

On the other nights they're fed one seaweed/algae or another. The day feeding is whatever the other fish are getting. Since they're in with wild-type Livebearers, the day feeding includes Emerald Entre' three or four times/week, & high quality flakes on the other days. I usually get some freeze-dried flaked Krill in there once/week as well.

The next spawn will see me putting them in a tank by themselves and trying to condition them on straight vegetable protein, other than the staple diet. In other words, the only increase in protein will be vegetable-based. That will probably revolve around seaweed/algae, since it contains a very good portion of useable vegetable protein, along with the few top protein vegies.

I have one definite male, one that I'm 99% sure is female and one that I think is female but its a bit larger than the other female so I'm not positive. The big male took over the spawning cave right away.:smile:

[madattiver]

if you look at the fish from above the males will have a redish diamond on the top of their head behind their eyes or percotral fins.. females do not have this red diamond coloration on their heads..

[Melody]

In all BN species? Odd trait, I'll have to look when the lights go on, thanks.

[madattiver]

from what I can tell it happens in all bn species.. Even in my ancistrus triradiatus I can see the glowing pink diamond on the males and they are quite dark brown in color. I will try to take some pics of my albinos and others to show you what I mean. I hope I have enough time tonight to get it for you.

[madattiver]

here is a link to one of the L144 males with the pink diamond I am talking about that is posted on Planet Catfish.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/image.php?image_id=4421

[Melody]

That pic sure clarifies it all, thanks for the link. My big male has a dark pink 'V' at this point, which will probably turn into the diamond. The others still haven't come out for their evening munchies. I'll check them then. Much appreciated!

[madattiver]

I ma glad I could help.. and as usual.. I never got around to taking pics of my fish last night. I ended up getting side tracked on making a spawning grate for the galaxy rasboras I hope to be buying wednesday..

anyways.. I hope you have at least one female of the other two that wouldn't come out last night. keep us posted.

[Melody]

I find that once I start taking pictures, I lose 2 hours - time flies & all that.

If you want a spawning grate alternative, grab a dollar store laundry bag. Give it a good soak to make sure its colorfast and to remove chemicals, then just line a tank with it. Once they're done spawning, you can gather them up right in the bag and move them to another tank - no catching. The drawstring around the top makes it easy to secure it over a tank. I use them a lot for brooding females too.:smile:

[madattiver]

for my grate I just used plastic craft sticks (like really thick plastic straws) to make the framw to suit the tank size and window screening for the eggs to fall through. I keep this about an inch off the bottom. ontop of the grate I put a bunch of javamoss for them to use as spawning media and the eggs fall right through.

I might have to look into that laundry bag method though

[Melody]

Still waiting on these little buggers. I have a friend with them and he's seen a spawn from his and I think they're all the same age but I'm not sure. Mine still appear to be maturing. The male is just starting to build his wrack of bristles and the known female still looks very small to me. I still don't know what the third one is, but its looking like she'll be a female.

I think that even with a focus on vegie protein, they're still getting lots of seafood protein so I don't think that's the prob, but if they don't respond soon I may go with normal protein conditioning to see if it makes a difference. They're growing more quickly than they were.

Now that the weather is warming up, I'll also be able to do cooler water changes. The tank is at room temp but room temp will soon be higher than it is now.

They love that new cave, incidentally. I got mine from Ken's Fish since I was ordering food anyway, but you can probably find them locally these days. They're relatively inexpensive and are supposed to be designed for spawning. They also come in various sizes.

[Melody]

Does anyone keep snails with their spawning Plecos? I happened to notice a Ramshorn climbing into the barnacle today and I got to wondering if they'd eat the eggs. I don't have Applesnails in there, just Rams.

The Plecos sure love that barnacle and I've read that they like tubes as well - I wonder if the tube shape reminds them of hollow driftood like they'd have in the wild or something... whatever it is, they took to it immediately and all but ignore their spawning cave since I added the barnacle.

[Pamelajo]

yep I do, all sorts of applesnails depending on which tank. Mine will not spawn in anything but the barnacles.

[Melody]

I was hoping you'd reply, thanks Pam! I know that the larger snails can't always be trusted with eggs, but I guess the male must keep them off or maybe they taste bad.

My male looks mature enough now, but the females don't appear to be fattening up with eggs so maybe they'll be slower. I have a White Tip BN in there and she's looking very fat, so maybe I'll get some crosses. I guess they'll either have pigment or they won't so it may not result in anything spectacular, but ya never know.:smile: He should be a happy male anyways - three females and him are all that's in there!

[Melody]

Here they are with their barnacle & a couple of Green Goodeids:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-Black-eyed-GoldBNs.jpg

[CACAdmin]

They look so cute. Thanks for posting the pic. Sure hope you get some little ones.:smile:

[Katalyst]

Put me on the reserve list for some fry lol....They are the cutest little things!

[Melody]

Down for future trades with Kat - so noted. :;): They're not supposed to be difficult to breed, I just haven't been able to work with them consistently. Initially I was just trying to experiment with vegetable proteins as conditioners, but now its personal. :laugh:

[hp10BII]

Here they are with their barnacle & a couple of Green Goodeids:


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-Black-eyed-GoldBNs.jpg


Pardon my ignorance, but are those real "live" barnacles?

[Pamelajo]

They are real barnacles just not live. I think that is one that Mel bought from me awhile back.

[CACAdmin]

She shared one with me too. My fry absolutely love it! :thumbup:

[Melody]

Pardon my ignorance, but are those real "live" barnacles?

As Pam said, real, not live. They're awesome! You can order them in from the states, but I got mine from Pam after she ordered them in from the States. They look pretty under water and they're all different.

[hp10BII]

My apologies for another gratuitous threadjacking post here :wideeyed:

Why "dead" barnacles or any barnacles for that matter? Is it just the "wow" it's a nice looking ornament, or a great hidely place for fry or add some buffering to the water or all the above?

[CACAdmin]

My apologies for another gratuitous threadjacking post here :wideeyed:

Why "dead" barnacles or any barnacles for that matter? Is it just the "wow" it's a nice looking ornament, or a great hidely place for fry or add some buffering to the water or all the above?

IMO... all of the above. :yes:

[Pamelajo]

The reason I got mine was mainly for decoration. I put it in one of my tanks and my bns who were of age to breed and had not, started breeding in that barnacle with in days. They had an assortment of caves, but chose it. I have one in with all my bns and they always choose the barnacle over anything else. So for me now it is mainly for breeding.

[Melody]

My apologies for another gratuitous threadjacking post here :wideeyed:

Why "dead" barnacles or any barnacles for that matter? Is it just the "wow" it's a nice looking ornament, or a great hidely place for fry or add some buffering to the water or all the above?

For me it was the combo of natural water ornament and buffering. The Pleco & fry thing is just a bonus. :smile:

[hp10BII]

How is the black-eye golden bn pleco breeding program coming along? I would be interested in a few youngin's. :yes:

[Melody]

My big boy is guarding his barnacle, so I'm hoping we'll see some soon. Lots of them around though. I'll let you know if I see any available. ::D: Might even be my adults....lol....I might need their barnacle for some new BN's.

Someone whispered to me about a hobby breeder who has every BN variety known to man. One of those people who does amazing work but doesn't advertise. I have always obtained exceptional fish from that type of breeder. Anyways, I don't know him, but my friend is his friend so we'll see what transpires.

Its funny you know, I'll be chatting away to some friend about what I'm planning, never even thinking that they'd have what I want, just gabbing, and they'll say "Really? My Sister's brother in law's cousin is friends with a guy who knows someone who can get you those, hang on while I make a phone call." :laugh:

[hp10BII]

Excellent...I'll keep me eyes opened...

[Katalyst]

Mel I hope you don't mind me bringing this thread back. Did you ever get these guys to spawn? I just picked up 3 of these guys from Pat, they are probally about a year till sexing they are so cute and tiny.

[CACAdmin]

And Kat, what about the barnacles? Did you get to bring a suitcase full home with you last trip? :DevilGrin:

[Melody]

I believe they've had two spawns now but they haven't survived for whatever reason. I have to isolate them to see if the Ramshorns are getting the eggs, the fish are getting the eggs or the Plecos themselves are getting the eggs. Its on the list :spinny: .

[Melody]

Why now? You ask... because I stopped caring if they did or not....lol.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-BlackeyeGoldBN-Spawn.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-BlackeyeGoldBN-Spawn-2.jpg


Now if I can get them to live, I'll be ok. There's some stiff competition for food in this tank due to snails, so that will be my first order of the day. I also have to do large waterchanges in the tank and a bunch of the browns disappeared after I did the last one.

I just cleaned out a 20G for the selective breeding magenta/pink snails anyway, as I've added growing breeders from the resulting babies. I'll probably also keep the Haustrums in there when they come in from Kat.

Point being, once the snails are out I can do smaller waterchanges and avoid pH fluctuations. :yes:

Now I have LF Brown & LF Calico on the way so I can ignore those too and get lots of babies:rolleyes: . I can't wait to have tanks full of the fancy varieties. After that, I'll start sneaking them into shipments as bonuses...lol.

[CACAdmin]

They are so darn cute.I'm absolutely amazed that you managed to get pics of them when they're so tiny.

[Melody]

They're way in a back corner so they didn't turn out very well, but all of those black eyes show up anyways...lol.

[Gramma]

So cute! Amazing that you were able to get pics. If they survive I may have to have one of those.

[fishykisses]

awe - i want some!

[Katalyst]

That's a great pic! Congrats on the spawn...

[Pamelajo]

Congrats Mel. I can't believe how well the eyes show up.

[Melody]

At first I thought my tired old eyes were seeing eggs :rolleyes: .

I don't know how the male survives - he isn't out in the tank for more than a few days before he has that barnacle filled again. I may have to remove the female periodically to give him a rest:err: . I took the brown BN female out and he was so fast with the female BEGBN that I wasn't sure if the eggs were hers or the other females from before I moved her. I guess he's not picky:twitcy: .

What I would really like to do is find one with a brown patch, which they occasionally throw. The breeder of these has seen it so theoretically I should too. I'd like to play with the genetics there. I also want to cross this and that to study dominant/recessive genes since it appears to be such a weird group in that regard. I'll have these, the LF Calicos, LF Brown, Brown & Albino to play with so that should keep me busy.

Thanks for the comments ::D:.

[madattiver]

umm I guess I will start with saying congrats.. then I will follow that up with... please save me some when they grow up a little bit.

[Melody]

Oh for sure... I'm thinkin' they'll be good trade fish in fact. I'm not really into breeding them for sale as there's a zillion breeders already doing that, but it's a fun experience.:yes: With any luck at all, I won't kill them.

[Melody]

Daddy let them out the next day. It was seaweed day and I didn't notice them until they were out scavenging. I was afraid they might not be able to eat it, so I figured I'd feed them some peas later & in the meantime would snap some pic's. Apparently once the seaweed has softened it's not a prob...lol...I think it's a piece of Kelp. The container is a mix so I'm not sure.

Whassat?

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144FrySeaweed.jpg

MMMMM.....

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144Fry.jpg

All gone!

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144FrySeaweedGone.jpg


I'm a tad nervous about the day's waterchanges. I think I'll just take water & leave the gravel this week.

[CACAdmin]

Sooooo cute! Great pics! He obviously enjoyed the seaweed... an will be expecting more of course.

[Melody]

Well I suppose seaweed is just glorified algae so it makes sense, but I thought it would be too tough. I guess if baby snails can handle it the Plecos would too. I'm almost afraid to do the frozen breakfast tomorrow - that male will be back at it and I'd like to see him stay out and move around for a couple of weeks before he goes into guarding mode again. :wideeyed:

[CACAdmin]

I hate to tell you but frozen breakfast or not, if she's willing, he'll be joining her in the cave and thus be busy guarding once again. After all, how do you expect him to resist the charming lady.

[Melody]

LOL yes but the protein encourages both of them.

[CACAdmin]

Yes, it apparently does. So the question is, do you hold off on the high protein frozen breakfast and risk having all your fish glaring at you in order not to add extra incentive? :laugh:

[Melody]

Well the babies need their Shrimp anyway so we're just going to have to let the male regulate himself :rolleyes: .

[Melody]

They held off pretty good, but after the Emerald Entre' meal this evening they seem to be getting cozy :laugh: .

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144-Pair.jpg

[CACAdmin]

Romance is in the air (or in water rather). I guess it won't be long before he's in the cave guarding eggs once again.

[Melody]

I would guess so, but ya never know with these. I haven't had the Emerald Entre' for awhile as I forgot to check for it the last time I was at Petsmart and before that I hadn't been there for awhile. The new tastes might have inspired them after having regular shrimp for so long. I got a carnivore mix that I like to feed with it, but the package has been damaged and/or thawed so it's going back. At $12 per package I'm not just going to throw it out. :no:

[CACAdmin]

At $12 per package I'm not just going to throw it out. :no:
That's for sure. Too bad you hadn't spotted it at the store so that you don't have to make another trip.

You know that's one thing that people often don't realize is how costly it is to breed fish and other aquatic creatures when you are feeding them a variety of the quality foods which they need. I think people often think 'small fish = small cost to feed', which is far from the truth of the matter. :rolleyes: I know I come home rather broke after shopping for food for my fish.:yes:

[Melody]

You can say that again. That's why I could never figure out why people think homebred fish should be LESS expensive than store fish. It's expensive and outrageously time-consuming to do it right. However, I've also met many wonderful buyers who appreciate what they're getting as well so it's easier to dismiss the el cheapos of undeserving :laugh: . Maybe it's a matter of educating others so they understand just how profound the difference is. I think some figure we get the babies for free so we shouldn't charge as much - to any breeder that is a very big joke...lol.

I have found though that feeding less of the over-processed stuff has cut my food bill. Freeze-dried, frozen, fresh and live foods sometimes appear to be expensive, but they don't need nearly as much of it to get the proper nutrition. When you consider the size of their stomach, one slurp of Shrimp and a little piece of seaweed is all they need to fill their stomach and have a very good meal. I've started feeding way less per feeding since I really thought about that. I try to include a serving of high quality commercial food as a multivitamin except on the days that I'm feeding homemade food (that's already supplemented & there's endless naturally sourced nutrients). A lot of frozen foods are now fortified too so it eliminates the need for a supplement as well.

I also used to cater to fry when I fed frozen because I automatically assumed it was too big for them, but there's little particles that go into the water column so they basically serve as a clean-up crew and get plenty to eat.

They did exchange the food no problem, incidentally. I've never had a problem with exchanging anything at Petsmart. The package looked fine, but somehow the inside had been hit... maybe something was dropped on it or it thawed.

Speaking of Petsmart, they charge $4 for wild and $5 or $6 (can't remember) for blue Applesnails - two of the most common colours on the market and certainly not as healthy as our pampered home-raised snails. Breeders get $2-$3 for either of those colours, no taxes, yet we still get the complaints and freebie demands. :rolleyes: And there you are as we speak, practically giving away beautiful, healthy Marisas on the auction (http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/ClassAuction/)! Those are rarely seen in stores unless they happen to be lucky and smart enough to buy them from a local breeder.:yes:

[Pamelajo]

I would much rather buy anything off a fellow breeder than to buy from a lfs. The marisas have gotten scare down here. Have not seen any at the lfs for a while so maybe they are not making their way up here anymore.

[Melody]

I think a lot of places just stopped breeding/offering the plant-eaters in the States. The red tape involved for even a farm to have them is a big deal. The tropical climates don't want them there at all, let alone sold. The demand for Cana's is probably higher with that size thing they have going, so maybe they're worth the headaches. I suppose the farm(s) supplying Marisas may have just gotten out of plant-eaters entirely too.

My first Marisas were huge and they came from a local wholesaler, but I have never seen them in stores that I didn't take them to myself...lol. I sure wish I could find those again - they were easily twice the size of the Marisas I've seen since and I didn't have both sexes at the time so I didn't get babies from them.

People are more into plants than they used to be too. I think the Internet helped that along - it's hard to look at a beautifully aquascaped tank and not want one. That makes it hard to move plant-eaters so people stopped breeding them. It's too bad though because they're going to disappear from the hobby.

[CACAdmin]

It is a shame as they are excellent janitors and algae eaters. I think they'll always find a home in tanks of breeders who simply want bare-bottomed tanks with no plants as it's so much easier to see & net fish under those circumstances. (Beleive me I know from personal experience the hassles of trying to selectively net fish in a planted tank. :rolleyes: ) They are beautiful snails and do get to be large (granted not as large as Canas as a rule but I have breeders which are 1.5 in. in diameter.) However, I do understand the position of the regulators in the US given that due to the negligence of people releasing snails into the wild that vegetation has been destroyed. Here in Canada if one does escape, it won't last long as they can't survive our winter temps (even here on the coast).

[CACAdmin]

Now back to the plecos, I think my babies in the 70 g are black-eyed golds, not albinos (based on the fleeting views I get of them on the back wall of the tank.)

[Pamelajo]

Now that I finally have a tank big enough to be a dedicated plant eater tank. I can't get the snails to go in it.
I have one cana left, but trying to find more. I have searched all our pet store just in case they brought in a cana by mistake.
One haustram left, also looking for more.
4 Insulariums, in spring may pick up a couple more from LFS so I get a male if I can't find the canas.

[Melody]

I can get Cana's & Hautrums if you want them Pam, but I can't get the light foot Cana's as yet. I have 'medium-foot' gold Cana's who appear to do well but they've never laid a clutch. Same goes for the Haustrums. They could be all one sex I suppose.

[Pamelajo]

That would great if I can some.

[Melody]

I'm arranging things with two US breeders as we speak, so I'll see what they have & let you know.::D: