25 gal all set up

[jordonsmum]

I didn't know that you could actually tell that fish were happy..:laugh: . Since I put a few from my 15 gal into the newly set up 25 gal they are a lot more active. They seem to really enjoy their new space. I was taking a few photos and thought I'd attach one of the father of the Lyretail Sword fry as well as one of my newer preg females. She's not one of my fry but she's really nice.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/jordonsmum/100_4555.jpg

[CACAdmin]

I'm sure they are enjoying all that extra space and a new tank to explore. I find my fish seem to love to explore every nook and cranny of the tank even when I just rearrange the 'decor' (plants/wood/rocks, etc.).

[Melody]

Agreed, they truly do appreciate it. Keep an eye on those parameters and I'm sure they'll be very happy in there. Remember to feed very sparingly or you'll get a spike now that the fish are in there.

I'm just looking at your male - does he have a full lyre? I can only see the sword. The sword looks like a typical male sword rather than a lyre. What I'm wondering is if there is another isolated gene that can create a partial lyre on an otherwise normal Swordtail. A throwback to the morph that started it all maybe. He doesn't have the dorsal of a Lyre either - he's not a lyre, for all intents & purposes, so that would explain why he can impregnate. That could be handy info., is why I ask.

The problem with that is it may pass on to too many offspring and you'll end up with a lot of partial lyres, but that depends on whether the trait is dominant or not... very interesting.

[jordonsmum]

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/jordonsmum/100_4458.jpg
I know, I suck at photos. Here's a better pic of his lyretail. He's the one pointing to the left.

[jordonsmum]

Here's the photo cropped closer. Easier to see:D http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/jordonsmum/100_4555-1.jpg

[Melody]

Nice pic :smile: . The lyre is connected to the dorsal which is connected to the extended gono. That's how it goes. Apparently that's not ALWAYS how it goes though....lol. Maybe its the Lyre dorsal that's connected directly to the Gono, but the Lyre dorsal isn't always present. Its interesting how his sword looks like a regular swordtail sword, whereas in Lyres it doesn't. I'll be interested in hearing how the fry develop. In fact, I'll have to have some to study...lol.

I may have to consult the genetics gurus on this one.... :Think:

[jordonsmum]

Ok, I'm soooo confused. I thought the lyretail was the extended tail fin... is he not any type of lyre???? What is he????

[Melody]

He has a lyre tail, but he's supposed to also have the lyre dorsal & gono, so there's a genetic link missing there. His sword also looks like a regular male swordtail's does, rather than being exactly the same as the top. He should have the extended gono and the other finnage should look like this:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-Lyretail-M2-1.jpg


Matching upper & lower tail, higher dorsal. An actual Hifin Lyre has a completely different dorsal, this is the regular Lyre dorsal.

Its great to have a productive male Lyre, but you'll want full lyres in the fry. I put the question out to the Livebearer gurus and linked to your picture of him.

[jordonsmum]

But if he has the full gono, then he wouldn't be breedable... right??? So, if the full lyre males aren't breedable, what do you breed with your females to get lyre swords??? I thought that's what the partial males were good for... passing genes while still being breedable...??? I'm so confused... LOL shows what I know...:rolleyes:

[Melody]

Exactly - its great to find a breedable Lyre male when you want to breed them. You just want the full flowing finnage for when you sell them. I had a partial lyre breedable male at one point, but the top didn't extend much.

http://members.linkopp.com/biz/sandpiper/images/MM-Semi-LyreRedSwordtail-M-.jpg


His dorsal still matched - looks like it has a chunk out of it but its really mimicing the tail. That's what they're supposed to do, hence the Lyre tail having to match the dorsal, making the dorsal look high and 'hooked'.

What I'm curious about is if your male fry will all have the same traits as he does, with the lyre tail only, or if they'll favour the Mothers, whom should be full Lyres. Do they have a high dorsal? I can't remember.

If you're breeding lyres you usually use a regular Swordtail male, preferrably a regular-finned sibling of full Lyres, but any male will do. You get some Lyres & some regular fin fry. You may get some full Lyres and some like your male - inbetweenies....lol. As a breeder, I would try the breedable male lyre of yours too, in the hopes of increasing the Lyretail/regular ratio.

You made a good choice in trying him, its just a genetic puzzle....lol.

[CACAdmin]

If it helps any, here is (full) Lyretail male for comparison. Sorry that the pic is a little dark and out of focus... he wouldn't stay still.

http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/jb_images/m-lyresword.jpg

[Melody]

That's the ticket! So now if Jay goes to a store looking for a male Lyre, he's looking for that kind of male Lyre - a full Lyretail Sword. If a breeder is looking for a breedable male Lyre, they'd like finding one that just had the lyretail.

[jordonsmum]

ok gotcha.... See ya learn something new every day...:laugh: I think I mentioned my last male with a lyretail was exactly like this guy. I've seen full male lyres then but non that were breedable. That's why I snatched these two up. It'll be interesting to see what the fry look like... thanks for the help as usual...lol

have a great day.. gotta run..

[Melody]

I'll let you know what the gurus say - I know when I'm out of my league....lol. Its an interesting variant and certainly a handy one if you're a breeder. The only downside is if it gives you too many 'incomplete' lyres. I want to reserve some males if you get more like him - I'd like to do some experimenting. It doesn't involve disection so no worries;) .

[jordonsmum]

:laugh: I know ya better than that.... he he he. I know you'd never hurt a flea;) . I actually really like the Lyre tail with the black stripe. I think it adds some colour / (pizaz).. I'm kind of hoping I can see it in the fry somewhere. It'd be nice though if I could get full Lyres with the black stripe, so same tail but with the lyre dorsal etc... wouldn't that be cool!! I have my fingers crossed. Did you want me to take a few more photos of him for the gurus???

The guy that I had last time that looked like this guy yielded fry that were full lyre but no black stripe on them. :no:

[jordonsmum]

Sorry, I'm looking back at the prev page and realizing that I'm missing reply's and not responding.. the females are full lyres. Two of them are fry from the last male that I had that looks like this guy.. here's a pic. I forgot to mention too that he has the long pec fins in front of the gono but he keeps folding them up for the pics.. i'll try to get a better photo.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/jordonsmum/100_4420.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/jordonsmum/100_4399.jpg

[jordonsmum]

This is a really bad (fuzzy) photo, but you can see his pec fins. You couldn't see them in any of the other photos because he wanted to be difficult and tuck them away...little stinker...:laugh:

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t174/jordonsmum/100_4562.jpg

[traco1]

I don't think I've ever seen a lyretail sword with a black line? Is there such a strain?

[jordonsmum]

I'm not sure, but he's doing an awful good job of mimicing...lol

[Melody]

He has the black line because he's somewhere between a Lyre and a regular Sword - the black line is a common Sword trait.

Good news that the female is a full Lyre - hopefully that's the dominant. I suspect it would be since we don't see the males with the lyre tail only very often, but they'd be culled by most breeders so maybe not.

Its bound to happen in genetics I suppose - there's no predetermined black & white when you mix them up. It makes sense that some would be full Lyres, some would be regular Swords and some would be a combination of the two, I just thought that the entire Lyre group came together. I know that the Lyre gene is a visible trait - they either have it or they don't carry the gene, so maybe I've just been assuming too much based on that.:Dunno:

Either way, he's a handsome boy!

[jordonsmum]

I'm back to the "lottery" theory again. I'm having fun and looking foward to seeing what the outcome is;) . I think it was Jay??? that said, breeding is like a lottery, you never know what you'll get.... It's a lot of fun. And it's funny, because he was the meak little guy that was picked on in the tank that he came from and now he acts like the king of his castle with all of the women he has to take care of. Poor guy...lol

[Melody]

Agreed - I get bored to tears with breeding fish that all look like the parents. Its nice to have variety and nothing beats some genetic puzzle, in my opinion. Keeps things interesting!

[jordonsmum]

Have your gurus got back to you yet with an explanation???? I'm curious. I'm looking forward to mums dropping fry more and more every day... they are HUGE!!!!! and squaring off now. I'm doing water changes every 2 days trying to encourage them. Also, I did a little peek in on the blue platy fry tonight and counted 8 in about half of the floating plants. They are just now starting to come to the surface of the foliage when I drop food in.

[Melody]

Haven't heard yet - should be by tomorrow!

[Melody]

Okie dokie! Livebearer legend, Jim Langhammer, who has the patience of an angel with my questions and boundless knowledge, reports that he found the same phenotype years ago. He dubbed it a 'pseudo-lyretail' and quote "In my experience these males do not pass on this finnage as either a dominant or recessive trait. It seems only to be a non-genetic anomaly. True Lyretails have ALL the finnage elongated."

Another breeder's theory is that it is caused by "an incomplete dominance". He guesses that there will be fewer Lyres and they will be smaller than a full Lyretail's lyre.

This may yet be debated by the two or more, so I'll keep you posted. I would love to kidnap a few of these breeders and just pick their brains for a month. Its stuff that you would never find on paper, its all in their head.:notworthy:

[jordonsmum]

well when you kidnap them be sure to stick them in a room with many pens and lots of paper....lol That's great for the info Mel, thanks!!! Hopefully i'll get another breedable male out of one of these drops!!!!:D

[Melody]

After a bit of discussion, it seems that the breedable male Lyres are just one of those things that pops up occasionally. They don't seem to produce males like themselves. In the 'proper' circles, they're not considered to be a Lyre, which I find kinda funny since they have one...lol. If it were me, I'd separate them all into Lowfin Lyretails, Hifin Lyretails, and Longfin Lyretails. But nobody asked me. :NoWay: