Setting up a 20gallon reef.

[WaterPond]

Well, i have an empty 20gallon tank. I have ALWAYS wanted to go salt so i decided since i am working now i can afford one. My parents never liked the idea before, but i made a compermize. I am going to take down my 15gallon tank, asweel as a 5gallon and a 3gallon in order to set this up.

I have always talked about it, and my parents have agreed at times, but then later have said "no way, so saltwater". This time its for real because its all going to be with MY MONEY :)

I just sold a guitar for $300 and i have about $150 in the bank account. This should be plenty for getting a decent saltwater tank.

Here is what i will need

-Lighting with some good watts
-live sand
-live rock
-hydrometer
-heater
-protien skimmer(just a cheap one)
-powerheads
-reef master test kit
-digital thermometer
-salt mix
-food for corals

it should cost about $375 with a little money left over for fish and corals!

i would really love some tips on where i could buy some of this stuff for cheap.

Oh, im excited.

[Osprey]

It's going to be difficult to make a nano your first saltwater tank. Make sure you have the discipline to limit the stocking list! I would recommend going with an invert-only tank to start with... for the first 6-8 months. You won't be bored, the rocks will be teeming with life. Plus there's still hermit crabs and shrimp, etc. to watch. I would only keep one, or at the very most two, very small fish in that tank. I'm guessing there's no way to upgrade to a slightly larger tank? Looks like you've had to do a lot of persuasion already. (I've been there too ;) )
Check out the buy/sell forums on Canreef.com; there should be some specific to your area that will allow you to pick up some of the gear used for cheap. In particular, if you can find a Remora, CPR bakpak, or Deltec HOB skimmer used for super-cheap, you should pounce on the deal. The skimmer is one of the most important items; if there's anywhere it's important to spend money, it's here. If you're certain you can't spend a large portion of your budget on a good skimmer; go ahead and get a cheap one (the Red Sea Prism comes to mind), it's better than nothing... but you'll eventually want to upgrade.
Don't bother with live sand. Buy good-quality live rock and some dry aragonite sand (way cheaper than 'live' sand); the rock will seed the sand bed with detrivores and good bacteria. In a tank that size, you'll want to go shallow sand bed; no more than one inch deep (3/4" is about right). The thermometer and heater from the tank running previously should be adequate for now... you'll probably want to upgrade the heater later. For powerheads, I recommend a couple of Tunze nano-streams.
Order in some books through the library if you can. I recommend Robert Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist, in particular. There's also some excellent reading on www.wetwebmedia.com (http://www.wetwebmedia.com).
Good Luck, and keep asking questions... research is key to success in a saltwater tank.

[WaterPond]

It's going to be difficult to make a nano your first saltwater tank.

Its better than the 5gallon reef i wanted to start :yes:

What is your opinion on the Current USA Fission Nano Skimmer, i have a friend that used it on a 15gallon and it has worked out well for him. Its funny, because people on other sites have told me i don;t need a skimmer. They said it would just be less maintainence if you did have one.

I need to buy a heater because the 20gallon used to be a colwater tank. I'm going to scrub it out today. What kind of heater would you recommend, im going to buy a good one right off the bat.

I was already planning on buying the dry sand, i just said live sand because it later becomes live, does it not?

How many pounds of live rock and how many pounds of base rock do i need. I was told i would only need about three pounds of live rock, and like 30 pounds of base rock.

I can't find anywhere to but the powerheads you suggested. I need to fins some that are fairly cheap ($20 a piece). What is so different from these and lets say aquaclear powerheads? That was what i was planning on getting.

I can't afford books.:( My aquarium society library should have some good books so i will ask them.

How many watts of lighting do you think i will need. I was going to get a 24" 130w 2x65w, but wont that be way too much? I'd like to get refurbished lights from tricity tropicals.com but they won't be getting any in for a very long while. I know everyone has different opinions on oddyssea lighting but i have heard both good and bad thing. And they are cheap. Are they worth it or should i totally avoid them. If so i will have to buy used because i can't afford new. I was looking on ebay and they have something called "catfish lighting" (thats the brand name), any thoughts on that type?

I think thats all the questions i have for now. Thanks so much for your help Osprey!!

[Osprey]

Most libraries have a book-sharing program called ILLO... they should be able to order the books in for you. All you need is a membership. If you live in Alberta, the libraries here ship books around to each other all the time with no charges whatsoever. I've managed to read quite a few excellent non-fiction texts for free that way.
I would buy lighting used. You can usually find some good deal online, and new lighting fixtures are usually overpriced, IMO. Make sure you keep up with bulb replacements! Fluorescents should be replaced every six months. I'm guessing that the lights you're looking at are power compacts? (u-shaped bulbs?). They should be fine for softies, and possibly some of the less demanding LPS. Look out for chemical warfare in a tank that small... you might be best to stick with soft corals. Avoid leathers, and possibly shrooms; they're both chemically aggressive and may poison the other coral species in the tank.
$20 each for powerheads? Ouch... I can't even find the uber-cheap heat leaking ones for that price in my area. That's the problem with cheap powerheads; they're cooled by the water and leak a lot of heat into the system. In a small tank, that's particularly bad. You don't want things to overheat. Circulation is the most overlooked area in purchasing tank equipment, and it's just as important as lighting. Check out the GPH rating on those powerheads; you want to move at least 10x the tank volume every hour (so they should each be rated 100GPH or better).
Your best bets for heaters are the Ebo Jager and Visitherm. Go ahead and buy them used if you want to; they both have fantastic lifespans.
I would start with at least 10 lbs of live rock. Get a few different types; it is the basis for the ecological diversity and balance in your tank. Supplement that with 10 or so pounds of dry base rock... depending on density. Don't stuff your tank with it, and don't lean it against the walls. You want lots of circulation around the rock, it is your bacterial filtration.
I haven't used that particular skimmer. Like I said, though, any skimmer is better than nothing. I know some people run skimmerless systems... but that requires you to double up on water changes, and water changes in a saltwater system aren't free anymore. You'll be surprised at how the cost of salt will add up.

[WaterPond]

my LFS is going under and everything is 50% off, aquaclear powerheads are so i was wondering if they would be fine. I know alot of people that use them with saltwater tanks... do they overheat?

If i space out my corals and stuff could i get mushrooms... those are really the only thing that i want, but i want polyps too.

How many watts should i get, i want something that will keep the corals happy and healthy. I was thinking 4wpg at the least, but is it ok to have like 6wpg, or should i go with the lighting that is like 65wCF rather than 2x65wCF?

As far as live rock goes, i know one store carries figi, and another carries something they call Kubotu live rock. The Kubotu stuff is really cool looking. I am really sceptical about buying it from there though because this guy does not have any lights over his SW tanks (its a pretty crappy store which has very unhealthy fish).

I will get a visitherm... they sell those for fairly cheap around here.

How much salt should i get to start with? I was going to just get a 50gallon bag. THen save up and then get like a huge bucket of it.

[Osprey]

Keep up the water changes and run activated carbon, and you should be able to keep shrooms. Watts aren't as important in SW as they are in freshwater; the type of lighting is important. For the softies you want to keep, PC's or T-5's with a good reflector will both work. Go ahead and try the aquaclear powerheads; if they overheat the tank, you can always replace them later. Aiming a fan at the water surface helps to lower the temperature if the tank starts to get too warm.
There's no purpose in stockpiling salt; just buy what you need. I like the bags (instead of the pails) because the smaller amount isn't as likely to absorb moisture and cake before it's all used up.
Have you had any luck finding used equipment on CanReef?

[happy_pitbull]

I keep an 18g SW nano, and I know others with 10g Nanos. We all keep numerous shrooms, Star polyps, yellow polyps, ricordea, etc.... all grow very well.

The thing is to make sure you know how it will grow before you place it... some corals like the polyps can quickly take over a entire area, so I find it best to keep them on their own 'island' (rock) located by itself on the substrate. Others need to placed a safe distance from others...for they will attack and kill each other if they can reach each other. That almost happened to me once, my ricordea was in reach of another shroom I had, and started to kill it... the ricordea stretched itself way over just to reach for it and attack it ! Luckily I noticed in time to move them :)

All I have on my Nano is a 15Watt 18inch CoralLife 50/50 bulb... softies dont need lots of light to do well... they are pretty easy to keep. I used to use 2 mini compact spiral flourescents when I had my 10g nano. And they even make compact flourescent bulbs just for that purpose now ! : http://www.bigalsonline.ca/BigAlsCA/ctl3664/cp17944/si1319973/cl0/coralifeminicompact5050lamp20watt

I also do not run a skimmer... I do a weekly water change of around 4 gallons. :)

I have a pre-filter sponge on my powerhead.. if the opening is large to the powerhead intake section, you have to try to cover this or small organisims ... small fish, etc.. may get sucked in. I run no inserts in my main filter... and only run carbon once in a blue moon to clear the water up nice.

I use a 160g bucket of salt mix by Instant Ocean. My house is very humid, but this salt has never clumped up on me.. The lid is very tight fitting... you haver to use a hammer to open and close it ! Thats the way it is made, to prevent moisture from getting in it.

What is your source water going to be, as myself, and a lot of others, use R/O water... as this is the best... lacks minerals and phosphates etc that cause excess algae growth.

Also... for starters, like Osprey said, stick to inverts only.. then slowly add fish later on. I have 2 false clowns, and a green clown goby right now, and have a lawnmower blenny on order. In the future I would like to add a firefish or royal gramma... and that would be the max amount of fish I put in my tank. I know others with 10g nanos, that have quite a few fish.. and their tank looks wonderful! You just have to make sure the fish stay small, and are all compatible.

Here are a few links on nano tanks etc:
http://home1.gte.net/rhe1/nanoreef/
fish sticking guide: http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=74703
fish info: http://www.nano-reef.com/fish/


Good luck!


Min

[Sarahs]

good luck with your reef, I started my first SW reef ... 12 gal nano.... about 7 weeks ago, I haven't lost any fish or corals yet :) I don't see how they are harder to keep than bigger ones? I'm a mod on a big fish forum, they said the same thing.. I haven't had any problems..

Sarah

[Melody]

I think the caution there is that larger systems are less vulnerable to fluctuations, which is just science. It can be more challenging as there is less room for error. Same goes for freshwater, its just not as crucial there.

When you're on a learning curve with fish requiring a stable environment, bigger would be easier to cut your teeth on. Many new hobbyists do just fine with the smaller tanks as the first one, but most veterans are going to suggest the route that has the best chance of success, requiring the least amount of knowledge/experience. If nothing else, the word of caution can't hurt so the new hobbyist is that much more alert.

[Osprey]

I know someone in Calgary who has sworn off nanos (after keeping them for a while) due to the stability issue. A single dead cleaner shrimp, left unnoticed for more than a few hours, will crash the tank... and has, on several occasions. Ditto for a power outage of more than 2-3 hours. A large tank will remain fairly stable in both situations.

Worse, the tendency to overstock is much more pronounced in nanos... too many petstores with five to ten fish in a 15g nano on display. What they neglect to mention in those stores is that they have to do daily water changes and frequently switch out the fish. I've seen cowfish and blue tangs in nano displays, and both are unsuited for anything but a large tank due to their adult size (among other things). In a small tank packed full of marine fish, things can go badly wrong in an hour or two. I wouldn't risk it. The majority of people who try saltwater get out of it in less than a year, often due to tank failure, and I personally suspect the typical nano cube setup to be one of the reasons (the other, of course, is cost).
The general rule of thumb is one small (less than 3") fish per ten gallons of display water. That will result in a stable system, provided that filtration, etc. are properly maintained.

EDIT:
I missed the bit on the live rock before.
Don't worry about the lighting the guy has over his rock. LR gets along just fine without any lighting. When you give the rock better lighting, you can expect it to start sprouting all sorts of macros in a few months. My present macro species count in my tank is up to eight, and I cooked my rocks (ran them in dark tubs w/ lots of water changes and no food) for five months before adding it to the tank.
What is important is to buy rock you like the look of (after all, it's all the hardscaping you'll get), along with some light, porous rock, which acts as better filtration than the branching forms that are more decorative. It's not a bad idea to get rock from a couple different sources (for biodiversity), but that's not always possible.

[nathan u]

also a smaller tank a lot of the time will be more expensive then doing a larger tank.

I currently have a 25g reef and there are many days I wish I had gone with a bigger tank.
as everyone said there more stable, you have more stocking options, more space to add coral.
there are those who have success for the first 6 months, but many nanos crash after that unless you are diligent on water changes and keep track of all your livestock.

hope that helps and good luck with this

[happy_pitbull]

I have had a nano tank for well over a year now... now losses, except for some snails back in the beginning from the hermits I think.

I started with a 10g, and a few months ago upgraded to a 18g. No problems with water quality etc... fish all seem very healthy. I do regular water changes every week though, and would not miss those for anything !

I did not spend any money on a skimmer, fancy lights, or anything of that sort.


Min

[WaterPond]

:laugh: woah, i am so sorry to leave you guys in the dark all this time. I thought i had better give you an update.

In the beginning:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/Reef001.jpg

Sand Storm:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/Reef006.jpg

all clear:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwatereef001.jpg

new background:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwatertank-itbegins.jpg

I see the light!
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/newlights001.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/newlights002.jpg

The cycle is complete:
Cassius the clownfish (aka Happy)
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwatertank_july14004.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwatertank_july14001.jpg

My first coral: a mushroom leather:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwatertank_july14005.jpg

A few days ago:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwatertank_july15002.jpg

wow, thats alot of pics.

So my livestock now includes
1-ocellaris clownfish
1-mushroom leather coral
1-blue mushroom head (which i am trying to get to attach to something)
1- coral banded shrimp
5-blue legged hermits
1-scarlet leg hermit
3-astraea snails
1-feather duster

I still need to get pics because some of these things arenew to my tank as of last night.

What do you think?

and again, sorry for leaving you in the dark for so long, i havn;t had that much time.:SomebodyShootMe:
(http://www.fishdb.com/db/salt/specimen/Astraea_Snail.php)

[Sarahs]

looks really good!!
Sarah

[Melody]

Awesome Job! And your fish is named Nemo. It just has to be. Its like a rule or something.... check the Rules & Guidelines post, its probably in there. :DevilGrin:

[CACAdmin]

Looks great! :thumbup:

[happy_pitbull]

Looks great ! Love how you have it laid out :)

That clown is very pretty, I love his tail especially, as it has so much white in it, very nice !

On the shroom which is unattached to anything... try putting it in a shot glass with some pieces of rubble on top, and eventually it will take hold (if you out some small pieces of rubble underneath it as well).... then set the attached shroom and the rubble it is attached to on some LR and it will eventually take hold there.


Min

[WaterPond]

I just thought i would show you a few updated pics
Fulltank:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwaterfishtank_july24008.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwaterfishtank_july24003.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwaterfishtank_july24006.jpg

And i have WAY too much of this stuff:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/saltwaterfishtank_july24010.jpg

I started out with a small amount, and it has exploded. I now have enough to fill a five gallon tank full of it.

[Melody]

Amazing pic's as usual!

[blainep]

Looking good !

[CACAdmin]

Wow... cool shots! Looks like the tank is doing very well indeed. :yes:

[WaterPond]

Amazing pic's as usual!

I dunno, my camera has been taking very pixelated pics lately. Its only when i upload them onto photobucket that they do this, if i get them printed in a developing place, they turn out great. Its starting to frusterate me, it shouldent be my camera, because its practiaclly brand new


Anyhow thanks guys, more pics to come for sure. Im getting a few more corals this weekend i hope. Its gunna be a while until i can get my second fish because i can't make it into any good, reasonably priced fish stores for quite a while.

[Osprey]

Nice. You can probably trade the chaetomorpha; people are forever looking for the stuff to put into their 'fuges. Too bad nothing eats it!

[Sobe]

tank looks good, is it base rock or LR that you used? not much coralline algae on it. my LFS near where I live gives a handful of live sand to help seed the tank when I was just starting out. I currently have a 33g but now I want to upgrade to something biggger :)

you could've left the aquaclear hang on back and make it into a refugium (search google for AC500 refugium), just take out the foam, that's what I have on mine and put my cheato, rubble and some light in there. Coralline likes to grow on where there are fast water flow so I just scrape the tube to let it populate other parts of the tank

[WaterPond]

Some base, mostly live though

Sorry its been so long since an updated picture. I have algea out of controll. I need an RO/DI unit i think. Phosphates are too high.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/Saltwater_aquarium_aug30001.jpg

[thegrandpoohbah]

The dreaded new tank syndrome! Don't worry, the algae should go away eventually. RO/DI water would definitely help though.

[Melody]

Looks pretty! I don't mind some algae, personally. It makes it all look more natural.:smile:

[CACAdmin]

Hey, thanks for the updated pic. It looks like everything is healthy & doing well (even the alage :;): ) but as Mr. GP. said, don't worry about it, it will go away eventually. the main things is that everything else is doing well.

Don't forget to keep us updated periodically.

[WaterPond]

Well, say goodbye. I will be tearing it down sometime soon. Im not not enjoying it. At least i tried. Now i know im am strickly freshwater.

[Melody]

That's too bad, I know you put a lot of effort into it. However, if you're not enjoying it then its for the best. Any ideas on what you'd like to do with the tank?

[WaterPond]

Shelldwellers are moving in. THe lights will be used on a 30gallon planted apisto tank.

[CACAdmin]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'm sure it has been a learning experience over all. We all have our preferences. If you never tried, you would always be wondering if you should venture into a s/w tank.

[happy_pitbull]

Well, at least you tried it out ! Sometimes I think I may have sold my SW setup as well if there had been some local hobbyists around me, but since there is not, it would be more trouble to try to sell (and know it is going to good hands) than it is keeping it...

So I kept it, and it has grown on me :yes: It is a lot more work than the FW tanks, and not being able to breed the inhabitants makes it less interesting I guess.... but still it is fun to watch. Especially the lawnmower blenny, he is a real character ! He entertains me everyday! LOL!

Shellies is a good choice !!



Min

[WaterPond]

Im giving it one more go guys.

[Melody]

Good idea!

[CACAdmin]

Cool... keep us posted on how it goes this time round. Good luck!

[WaterPond]

Just did a major major major clean. Got most of the algea out, and cleaned the sand, the tank, the filter, everything!

Looks alot better. Pics coming soon!

[Slipstream]

Good, looking forward to them, but make sure ya get some cleaning crew :)

[WaterPond]

Before: http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/STtank24-007001.jpg

Now:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt001.jpg


Other pics:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt006.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt007.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt003.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt002.jpg

[CACAdmin]

Looking good Waterpond! And who is the cute little blue guy in the last pic?

[Sarahs]

don't give up yet! SW tanks are so rewarding.. i do agree SW is challenging at times.. how often do you do water changes? how are your nitrates? I have 34 gal Red sea max.. it's a few months old. I change about 5 gal/week sometimes bi-weekly. Most every tank goes thru NTS (new tank syndrome) with algea.. smaller tanks are harder to maintain.. 'bigger the better' term applies to SW.. but it gets expensive fast! and aside from the hair algea.. looks like you had cyano happening, thats also common in new tanks. How long are you keeping the lights on? Possibly try cutting back the light.. how much clean up crew do you have?
I'm far from 'knowing it all" I am new as well.. but I am a moderator on another larger forum, so I have learned a lot. ( I used to be huge into FW)
Hang in there!
Sarah

[Melody]

Yes, as mentioned when the thread started, smaller tanks are more difficult to maintain in both freshwater and marine. The first page or two of the thread is a great read on that for those who are considering it. :wink:

The tank looks fantastic

[WaterPond]

Yes, im thinking of getting it published as a novel. :laugh:

"The edge of your seat action seen in WaterPond's thread "Setting up a 20gallon reef" will lead you on a gripping adventure of saltyness, soggyness and algeaness. The new york times gives it three wet thumbs up. See why" :confused:

[Melody]

:laugh: A must read for every fish fan!

[Slipstream]

A strategic guide to fish thinking. :twitcy:

[WaterPond]

Luckily i am seeing some price reductions at my LFS and they just got a huge shipment in. Lots of salt stuff, tons of corals, TONS of plants, and a few freshie fish.

I am trying to imprve my saltwater tank so i bought a cleanup crew. I bought 4 more (total of five) snails, and one more hermit crab to make 5 hermits.

I got looking and i noticed a little sixline wrasse bee- bopping along in the coral tank. I saw the price and i was llike, wow. I wanted one of those before but the price was scaring me off (they are around 48 dollars elsewhere). This was more than half the price so i scooped him up. Then i saw the corals and pics out some nice zoas. I got some orange and green zoas on a peice of LR.

The zoas are still practically closed

Here are pics

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt010.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt008.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt009.jpg

Here is a tank angle shot:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/fish-salt012.jpg

[Katalyst]

WOW! The colour on that fish is just gorgeous!

[CACAdmin]

Looking great! ...and what a cute little fish... no wonder you couldn't resist... such vibrant colors!

[Melody]

You're doing a fantastic job! I'm glad you decided to try again. LOVE that fish!

[WaterPond]

couple more:

Under actinics.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/gf.jpg

Clown getting in the way:
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/df.jpg

[CACAdmin]

Cool shots! :smile:

[Melody]

:thumbup:

[mixixe]

Hey Waterpond, good stuff keeping up with the tank. Nano SW is totally frustrating and totally rewarding, I agree with Sarah. I had a great little tank and then I neglected it all summer and it got overgrown with algae,as well some of the less desirable corals took over and killed off some of my favorites. Much harder to save than freshwater. Watch out for placing corals too closely together. If I were to start from the beginning I would start with less corals and more evenly spaced. Apparently zoos and mushrooms don't go well if placed in proximity to eachother, the zoos always loose out. Just a tip. I just learned this not too long ago. I'm cycling a new 10g nano and my 5 g is algae free again.. but I still love SW!

[WaterPond]

Time for an update.

Nothing new to say really. Corals frowing, algae going away, things are looking fairly good.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/pictures003.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/pictures002.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l117/WaterPond/pictures001.jpg

I have a video coming soon :)

[Melody]

Looks great!

[Slipstream]

Looks like its doing pretty good :wink:

[Shelley]

NIce clean tank.. your doing very well!:yes:

[Katalyst]

Awesome job Jason! Looking forward to seeing the video. :yes:

[CACAdmin]

Looking really good... I too look forward to the video.:yes: