velifera and petenensis

[stanman]

Hello All,

I'm happy to see that so many people like the velifera and petenensis. I am the hobbyist who originally supplied Charles at Goliad with his breeding stock last year. I acquired two wild caught populations of each species from Margaret Ptacek's lab at Clermson University in 2005. Sadly, the populations came unmarked so we could never decide which fish were what location. I decided to create aquarium strains of each species by breeding the two different locations of each species to each other. Also one location of the petenensis had a lopsided sex ratio favoring males so I hoped the cross with the more balanced sex ratio of the other petenensis location would be a good idea. These fish will get enormous. I assume Charles is getting great growth in his greenhouse but even in my 55's I had males easily top 6 inches on both. The velifera were so thick, heavy and strong that it was like catching a cichlid. The petenensis are a much sweeter species than the velifera, especially in groups. I usually had 30 -40 velifera of various sizes in the 55's and closer to 80 in a 55 on the petenensis. The petenensis seem closer to shenops in behavior and hardiness so they were fine with the numbers. Velifera are more delicate and need space and crystal clean clean water. Both species like it around 80F with 80% water changes weekly or twice a week. They love reasonible water movement from a powerhead or power filter. These fish eat and I mean eat. I fed them 4-6 times a day on everything, but especially frozen and live food -- bloodworms, brine shrimp (baby and adult daily), grindal worms, daphnia, mosquito larvae, fruit flies and microworms. I also fed a frozen beef heart and shrimp mix and a frozen salmon and fish mix. I used micropellets, brine shrimp flakes, veggie flakes, earthworm flakes and garlic flakes. The tanks had algae and lots of plants. If you will feed them well, keep them warm and change water they will grow pretty fast and large. The velifera will throw tiny males that sex out in 4 weeks that will need to be carefully culled. Look for the slow developing males that grow huge before sexing out. Those are the best breeders. My goal was to get pure strains of these species in the hobby again after years without them -- I had had both species back in the mid-70's from Norton and Socolof. Best of luck. I moved recently and am just now setting up to get breeders back from Charles. The red picta and nezzie swords are mine too. I bred the nezzies for size for 6 years through countless generations. If you breed the big late developing males and feed them enough to get such fish you will be stunned at their size and light blue color with yellow dorsals. I used to keep 40 in a 58 gallon tank.

[Melody]

Most of my Molly breeders came from Charles, he's an ace breeder who invariably cleans up at the ALA shows. We'll be seeing a lot more of him in Canada soon.

Petensis is another population, incidentally, Charles has Kykesis, according to the gurus. The story is in the Kykesis profile. :smile:

Great observations!

[blainep]

Welcome stanman

Sounds like you're a longtime wild livebearer keeper. You'll fit in here well :laugh:

Great to have you here !

[stanman]

Hi,

Nice to be here. The word seems to still be out on the petenensis vs kykesis name. I understood that the name kykesis had been formally accepted and so when I originally gave the fish to Charles I was using that name. Later, I found out people were still questioning its use, so petenensis came back. Kykesis and petenensis are the same fish in this situation, not two different populations. It seems that a short finned mollie species may have originally been given the petenensis name leaving the sailfin species that has carried the name for decades, unnamed. I suppose the taxanomists will sort this all out one day. Either way all the fish known under these 2 names will one day be petenensis or kykesis. I am hoping to get another location of wild caught velifera soon, one that was found carrying black spotting. Can't wait.

[Melody]

I know its not two populations, I just worded it badly...lol....I should have said it is another species but I meant that Charles' particular COLLECTION was Kykesis. I shouldn't have said 'population', thanks for clarifying that - little things can make a big difference when we're sharing information. I covered the name thing in the Kykesis article though. I think it was changed to Petensis officially but then it was immediately appealed.... and on it goes. It may have changed to one or the other in the meantime and I'm just not aware of it.

If you would like to add a post to any of the current articles about wild-types in our article section, I would be happy to have the information rounded out. There is very little documented information about them and sharing is how we're learning.

Thanks for bringing the fish to Charles, I wouldn't have mine if you hadn't!

Where is the black spot population? Are there any pictures around?

I'm assuming you're in the US - don't be surprised if I pay you a visit someday....lol....will you be at the ALA convention next year?

:Welcome:

[stanman]

Hi,

No pictures of the black spotted velifera. A friend collected a single black spotted female, along with regular velifera, in the Yucatan and has bred them producing a few black spotted fry. When I get them I'll describe them. No camera here.

Yes, the kykesis/petenensis thing is confusing. I hope petenensis wins out as I'm just used to it. But you never know what's going to happen. I hope people see just how spectacular the velifera and petenensis(kykesis) are and we can keep them in the hobby this time. Petenensis made it into the hobby in the 30's, the 50's the 70's, the 80's and now these. They always disappear after a few years. We're just lucky Ptacek is doing research on them and that I had a friend who knew her and set me up. If you have access to old fish magazines Myron Gordon did articles (with photos) on collecting petenensis for TFH and Aquarium Journal sometime in the mid 50's. Innes also wrote about petenensis (with a nice photo) in The Aquarium in the mid 30's and in his book Aquarium Highlights from 1951.

I doubt I'll be at the ALA convention next year but I might.

[Melody]

I had no idea they'd been around before, very interesting. I wonder why there isn't much documented about them? They have everything going for them - size, beauty and the unique 'sword' extension.

We have a couple of populations going here now and Charles has a long reach with his fish, so I'm hopeful that the species will remain. What is its wild status? I've never thought to ask.

Velifera is another fave of mine. One great thing about the Internet is that the 'craze' catches on and I think that's the reason we're seeing these fish gain in popularity. Digital cameras further promote them.

[stanman]

Hi,

I'm not sure why they have never caught on. I think part of it was by the 50's mollies were considered beginners' fish and serious hobbyists stopped keeping them. There were so many new and exciting egglayer imports then (and in the 60's and 70's and still today) that the old livebearers of the hobby's early days fell out of fashion. With petenensis the 30's importation was lost as they were given to Schaumberg in New Orleans -- one of the 3 early developers of the black sailfin molly from wild spotted/black stock -- and Schaumberg allowed them to accidentally cross with his latipinna strains. Then in the 50's Sternke in Florida used petenensis to improve the size and especially the hardiness of his black sailfins. I believe he and maybe Greenberg raised the species for a bit but then it was let go as native sailfins were just as commercial. Socolof received the fish sort of accidentally in the 70's -- he thought he had velifera at first -- and he raised them commercially on his Florida farm for a while but when he sold it in the mid-70's that was that. Individual ALA'ers had it through the 80's but people change their fish interests. I think the lack of demand traditionally at stores makes anyone who wants to really raise them think twice. But then if hobbyists brought in truly fine home grown specimens and not half grown or underfed/crowded fry the story there might be very different. People like almost any good quality fish.

Velifera too was rarely available as a pure species. Sternke brought it in in the 30's and raised it and used it to improve his latipinna based black sailfins. After that it seemed to disappear from American hobbyists tanks until Goldstein collected it in the Yucatan in 1970. He sent it to Norton and she began distributing it. In the mid-70's or so when the Far East introduced their Gold Sailfin Molly that was obviously an albino velifera or a velifera x albino latipinna cross and then velifera back crossed those fish took over the "velifera" market. Now velifera-like fish were the common shop sailfin molly -- not latipinna anymore. The Europeans seemed to keep velifera around to some degree starting in the 20's and I think this had to do with the fact that velifera seems to keep the sailfin when bred over generations in tanks -- provided they are well cared for; whereas, latipinna varies too much. Velifera made a better candidate for the European breeder. But even there after the 60's it seemed the fish became rare or non-existent in Europe.

The story of the sailfin mollies in the hobby is an odd one. You'd think they'd be highly popular.

[Melody]

They seem to go in and out of fashion even now. I think a renewed appreciation for wild-types is being seen now, and also an appreciation for pure strains. No fish has been crossed more than Mollies and Platy's/Swordtails. As the colourful hybrids hit the stores, the wild-types were forgotten and as you say, next to impossible to get.

I agree that the young fish in stores are often to blame when it comes to most wild-types. People have to move them as they run out of space, and they look dull next to the bright colours in stores. If they were sold as developed fish, even non-livebearer-enthusiasts would stop and stare. They're also often under glaring lights and of course, stressed out, which further dulls their colouring. Much of the subtle coloration that makes these fish beautiful, requires an aquarium setting with plants, etc to really set them off. Nothing compares to these fish when seen in sunlight!

People also have bad luck with Mollies, mostly due to a lack of understanding of their needs at the retail level I suspect, and the sale of low-quality specimens. After a few tries, people figure they 'can't' keep Mollies and that's a shame.

Can the Kykesis be collected now or have they disappeared like so many from the area?

I was happy to get my hands on the pure Velifera from Charles too. Such a stunning fish.

Thanks so much for sharing this info - its very interesting and nothing peaks interest like discussion.

[stanman]

Hi,

As far I know petenensis (kykesis) is fine in the wild. For years people thought it only came from Lake Peten but by the late 70's people were seeing it all over that area of Central America and southern Mexico. It looks like velifera is primarily the northern and northeastern sailfin molly in Yucatan and petenensis (kykesis) is the southern sailfin in Yucatan continuing into Guatemala. Robert Rush Miller's book on the fishes of Mexico would provide far more than I know. I sometimes wonder if petenensis (kykesis) isn't -- at some time and place along the evolutionary way -- a natural hybrid between velifera and a short finned molly species. Petenensis (kykesis) have the sailfin but in body shape and behavior are more like a shenops or related species. I wonder what the DNA would say. Velifera almost get a little sword extention and certainly carry the blackening of that area of the caudel as in petenensis (kykesis).

[Melody]

I sometimes wonder if petenensis (kykesis) isn't -- at some time and place along the evolutionary way -- a natural hybrid between velifera and a short finned molly species. Petenensis (kykesis) have the sailfin but in body shape and behavior are more like a shenops or related species. I wonder what the DNA would say. Velifera almost get a little sword extention and certainly carry the blackening of that area of the caudel as in petenensis (kykesis).

I wondered that the minute I saw them in person - maybe the original sphenops 'petenensis' had something to do with it?

[Melody]

... and Schaumberg allowed them to accidentally cross with his latipinna strains. Then in the 50's Sternke in Florida used petenensis to improve the size and especially the hardiness of his black sailfins.


I was trying to recall when a member mentioned the orange margin on the black Sailfins she bought - isn't the orange distal margin in the Black Sailfins a result of these original outcrosses? The way I heard it, they were crossed to the Velifera or Latipinna (I can't remember which), and the orange margin proved extremely difficult to breed out of the blacks, which is why we still see them most commonly with the margin today. I haven't noticed the Latipinna distal margin being particularly strong, but the Velifera margin sure is.

[stanman]

Hi,

Good wild latipinna populations carry the orange dorsal border. I grew up collecting them in drainage ditches. Schaumberg, Sternke and Beater (?) all started their black sailfin latipinnas in the 20's by collecting the naturally occuring black spotted to black specimens that occur in many wild populations of latipinna. Schaumberg did it in New Orleans and the other two did it in Florida. We had them in Texas too. These were line bred until they produced all black fish. Now the fry were often born grey and as they matured they turned black. The orange border was from the latipinna but all sailfins potentially carry it. Later, the velifera were used for increased body and dorsal size and the petenesis were used for hardiness in these fish. Somewhere along the line in the 30's a kind of black mutation/out cross/line breeding called "perma-black" appeared -- I think among black shenops based fish initially -- and when these were bred/crossed to the black sailfin mollies already developed you had the black molly as it is classically known -- at least up until the Asia velifera strains appeared in the mid-70's. These "perma blacks" had babies born jet black. The black no longer had to spread with maturity. I think this perma black strain was shenops based which is why they always required work to get big sailfin fish. When the Florida breeders stopped working them and the Asians turned to velifera based fish in the 70's these fish never really recovered their former glory although they are still readily available. You can always tell these from the Asian black velifera based fish as the Asian velifera based fish will have silver irises and the old latipinna based "perma blacks" do not. I had a line for a while of pure petenensis crossed with wild caught native black spotted/black Florida latipinnas from remote canals. They were the best mollies. They were so hardy. Like the old 20's black strains they developed their black as they matured. Some stayed spotted and some became all black but never like a "perma black" fish.

[Melody]

I'm going to have fun picking your brain - that's just the kind of details I eat up. I drive the senior ALA members nuts....lol. Thanks for the detailed answers, I'm taking notes.

I tell people that in your normal community circles, I thought I knew Livebearers pretty well. People were always asking me this or that. Yup, I thought I was pretty smart... then I joined the ALA and realized I know NOTHING :laugh: , compared to those who have studied it for years anyway. Dr. Norton quickly became my hero. I wish the ALA would produce a book, or a series of books - a joint effort. Get Darrell, Jim, Charles & some of the other learned members together and get this stuff down on paper. It might save everyone from having me constantly asking questions like a curious 5 year old, hungry to know everything.

I've also heard that the 'true' blacks came from sphenops, which makes sense to me.

What else do you breed, if I may ask?

Now I'm off to look at the Iris' of my blacks :rolleyes: .

[CACAdmin]

Thanks so much for the detailed info. You willingness to share your wealth of knowledge is much appreciated. (off to check the irises of my blacks as well. :;): ).

[stanman]

Hi,

I know what you mean. I used to call Norton in the 70's just to pick her brain. Right now I am just beginning to set my tanks back up as I moved last year and have not been able to do so before. That's one reason Charles received the mollies. I had planned on distributing them to more hobbyists but with the move I needed to insure their survival. Thanks to Charles that happened as everyone else excepting one person lost both species. The one guy who kept his is a molly nut and he actually has pure locations of the two species. Charles' are a cross of both locations I had for both of the species -- locations crossed not species crossed if that is clear! In the next few weeks I'll be getting all my fish back plus the new ones (spotted veliferas, mayae swords, alvarezi swords). You do have Norton's 2 books: Fancy Platies from TFH and Enjoy Your Modern Swordtails and Platies from Pet Library? Both are excellent. If you are in the ALA you saw my history of the hi fin swords article last year -- issue # 191. Another fish I'm anxious to have back is a cross between 2 locations of X. montezumae I made. I took the blue green strain and the black spotted strain and crossed them as the b/g strain is larger, with nicer overall color and dorsal size and pattern and, of course, the spotted are well spotted. I got just what I wanted: the b/g fish with black spots! I want to continue to selectively breed those for a nice aquarium strain of monties.

[Melody]

I ate up that article and all of the Hifin ones since - I love that stuff and I like working the creatures into something better. You did a fantastic job covering it. In fact, I paraphrased the information for this site. I've started doing the photo editor's job for the ALA mag actually, although there hasn't been much to it so far.

Charles has done an awesome job with the fish, and they've been showing well at the ALA conventions. We are discussing the possibility of my being his Western Canada rep when he's ready. Might as well be, I buy him out whenever I order.... there probably won't be any left for the stores when I'm done.:laugh: Ordering gives me a chance to chat with him too.

I came on board shortly after we lost Dr. Norton, unfortunately, but I quickly grew to admire her work and got to know her personality through others. I've read her books through the library but have never been able to find them when I looked to purchase them. I'll have to look again. Jim sent me one of her old articles which I greatly enjoyed, "Hifin Swordtail Improvement", from the Dec. 1970 issue of 'The Aquarium'. Fantastic photos.

I will have my Monty's in September I'm told, what an amazing Xiph they are. The cross that you pulled off sounds awesome - don't you just love it when a plan comes together? :;):

Good luck setting up the tanks - its fun to start again sometimes. I am considering that for when I attend an ALA convention, since I'll have a crack at a lot of species that I normally have to jump through hoops to get. I have managed to get some species in from Rit, Bill, etc though, so I can't complain. The ALA membership has been extremely good to me in fact.

[stanman]

Hi,

I'm glad you liked the article. It was written around 3 years and got lost. I also glad it sparked so much response. Roy Levine has some photos of great crosses on his webpage. I am going to do a similar one on the mollies as soon as time allows. You should be able to find Norton's book on Aquabid. If not try Jim Forshey's Aquatic Book Shop or Lee Finley's Aquarium Books. You mike try Neil Frank and Mike Schadle (ALA publications) too. All great people. Norton's books were just on Aquabid. Have you ever seen the Groenke or Kirschmann articles I quoted from in the piece -- incredible? Who is Jim? Monties are great. Alot of people have trouble with them. I never have. Same rule as all big livebearers -- alot of good frozen or live food, alot of space, good filters and water movement and big water changes. I actually like the nezzies more than the monties as a tank full of nezzies is fun! Monties are a bit more skitish. I'd like to have X. multilineatus. If you can get the spotted nezzies from Rich Serva and/or Dustin Stonebraker get some. Those are mine from the Xiphophorus Stock Center Ocampo location. The color is not as good as the ones I gave Charles but the spots are nice and i selected them for size too. I hope you become Charles' rep. Good livebearers need to be seen. The best photos of Norton's fish are in a Tetra Press book called Aquariology: The Science of Fish Health Management. It is a big book full of information and she did the genetics chapter. The finest hi fin swords she ever had are pictured in this article as well as the now lost legendary wide tail veil mollies. You need to see those photos.

[Melody]

Thanks, I'll track down Dr. Norton's books directly. Its been awhile since I read them and I'd really like to have copies of my own. I haven't read the articles you cited in your article but I'd like to. Bring them over, I'm making my infamous homemade pizza :laugh: .

It would seem that I have your Nezzies then - I got them from Charles. I had them before but they didn't thrive. I guess they prefer the cooler temps. I haven't seen the spotted ones... is it a morph or a different population (Ocampo)?

Sorry, I was talking about Jim Langhammer. :smile:

What is up with those Veiltails anyway? I did find them on a commercial site but they're always out of stock. Their stock pretty much has Orient supplier written all over it, so I wonder if they have a stash of them over there? And as if Balloon Belly Mollies didn't already suffer enough, they had them veils in those too.

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/fish2u_1960_51568379

{Photo: Fish2U.com}

[stanman]

Hi,

The history of the veiltail molly is a sad story. John Wood a commercial fish farmer and water lilly grower in Southern California found a single shenops female with a veil tail in the early 60's and he bred it to a male shenops that showed lengthening in the ventral fins (maybe an enlongated gonopodium too). By 1965 he had a strain of veil tail shenops mollies in black, marble and shenops' green. He introduced them to the hobby. They never really caught on. He re-introduced them in 1967 and again in 1968. By 1968 he was crossing them with latipinna to increase fin size. At this time a hobbyist named Steve Saunders bought some from Wood. I believe Steve received some of the latipinna hybrids for within one generation of breeding brother to sister and from few fry he produced what became known as wide tail veil mollies (the difference between a veil tail and a delta tail guppy if you will). The tails were wider and the dorsals had more fin rays -- hence the assumed latipinna influence. He sent some to Norton and Norton introduced the wide tail veil molly in 1970. They never caught on, one reason being the males were not always able to breed because of a slightly enlarged gonopodium and females wouldn't always mate with normal males or maybe the females were infertile. Norton developed a number of veil tail crosses but when she left the hobby in the 90's that was it. A few people had the veils going but they all ended up loossing them or loosing interest in them. Now the guppy tail mollies appeared out of Asia in the early 80's. At first they only had slightly enlarged gonopodiums and were available as regular black molly veiltails. They always had that strange rounded tail the Wood veils did not. I don't know if these are from Wood's fish are not. I don't think they are. At some point they crossed them with the Asian velifera strains and produced today's guppytail mollies with the huge lyretail sword like gonopodiums. Wood's fish never had gonopodiums like these. Then they added the ballon body to create a goldfish like veil tail molly -- hideous. I tried to breed guppytail non-balloon mollies to wild latipinna to see if I could make a better fish. I couldn't. The regular guppytails produced balloon babies and fry that sexed out male in 3 weeks at 1/2 an inch. The genetics are just a mess. Plus the round tail seems genetic as the latipinna blood did not change it. I suspect the Asians had their own veiltail mutation out of the millions of mollies they raise each year. Maybe the new Asian hi fin swords are a new hi fin mutation. Its in the genes. If you raise enough surely that gene will appear more than once over time. It stands to reason. Today, the Wood veil tail molly is history. Find Norton's photos of the early wide tail veil mollies before she started crossing them with so many new species and you will see all that is left of an extraordinary fish.

[Melody]

That's too bad.... they would be a stunning fish on a back that can support them, which a large, well-bred Molly could do. Its painful to see them on a pregnant Balloon Belly - their deformity makes pregnancy hard on them in the first place, let alone with that back weight. I wish they'd outlaw Balloon Bellies, but I guess if they haven't outlawed dyed fish, we won't see any laws on exploiting deformities anytime soon.:no:

Thanks for the history. Its amazing how many people swear that the Guppytails are a Guppy cross. I had a discussion with someone about that several years ago and he wouldn't budge on the Guppy theory. I knew that Dr. Norton had them at one time and I knew they weren't from a Guppy cross, but people believe what they want to believe sometimes. He said that it was impossible to have the finnage extension without a Guppy cross, to which I replied "Well that explains it then - the word 'impossible' wasn't in Dr. Norton's vocabulary." :laugh: He rolled his eyes and stopped arguing with me then. I have wondered if the Asian strains weren't a Guppy cross in a petrie dish, but your theory makes more sense. I see no evidence of a Guppy cross in looking at them. The cross has happened and they look nothing like that.

I guess we will just have to be diligent in watching for the trait in our own broods.... maybe someday....

[stanman]

Hi,

Yes, they were stunning fish. Its hard to believe they are gone. Look for Norton's article on them from the July 1970 (I believe) Aquarium Magazine. Also her piece in the Aquariology book I metioned is illustrated with stunning veil molly photos. I'm sure today they would be an enormous hit.

That's funny that people think guppytail mollies are a guppy x molly cross. They're odd but not that odd.

Well, if I have everything set up I'll have my velifera, nezzies and petenensis back in a week or so, along with some hi fin and lyretail swords, some hi fin (monty x helleri) cross, the black spotted wild velifera, X. mayae, X. alvarezi and my monty populations cross. That's a nice start to a new fishroom. I can't wait to see some of them as the mayae and alvarezi are new to me. Apparently, the alvarezi becomes almost red with age. We'll see. Time to start hatching baby brine shrimp and blending beef heart!

[Melody]

You must be excited! Sounds like a great start. X. alvarezi will also redden with sunlight I'm told, so you can try the tank in a spot that gets some morning sun.

I think Bill Allen has some Nezzie x Helleri Lyres - can't wait to see those. I hear its not an easy cross but obviously its been done. I'm also anxious to see what the Nezzie dorsal does for a Helleri Hifin. Monty x Helleri is something I've always wanted to try myself. I am getting a reverse trio, and intend to remove all male Swordtails from the tank and let him at all of my females - Hifins & Lyres.

A purist I am not :laugh: , its just too much fun to outcross. I believe we need to label them carefully and keep our wild-type strains too, but the genetics of crossing is something that will always intrigue me.

[Sealth]

This thread is some of the best livebearer info I have seen online in a long time! Even though I don't have room for mollies. I saw Stanman's posting on the ALA site last week about his nezzies, and thought this guy knows his stuff. Now he posts here.
Melody, btw, I may be in Vancouver in the next month or two. I will still have plenty of young hifin platys. You may end up benefitting, because the younger fish look like they have a lot more color than the first batch. I will pm you when I know more about heading north.

[Melody]

Good stuff, thanks very much. :smile: Glad you made it home safely, how was the trip?

[stanman]

Hi,

Good to hear that Bill has made the nezzie x lyretail cross. I too mant to see nezzies crossed with helleri but I have a feeling the great cross there will be nezzies with variatus. That should produce outstanding fish both ways. Imagine a nezzie with a yellow hi fin and a red caudal or imagine a variatus with a hi fin based on a nezzie's fin rays -- incredible. I also think nezzies and variatus go together well as the body shape is already so alike. The same with helleri and mayae. I'm hoping the big mayae dorsal will make a hi fin helleri based fish that keeps that particular group's dominate characteristics. Now a lyretail monty would be something. I think Roy Levine is working on that. Looks like there might be a return to the glory days of hobbyist livebearer breeding from the 30's - 70's. We have such unexpected riches to work with coupled with, as you say, a new awareness of keeping the wild stock and keeping it pure. I've always kept all families of fish with an emphasis on annual killies and livebearers but lately the livebearers have just taken over. One reason I stumbled on this board is I was checking out PNW fish sites as I would like to move there in the near future. I did a trip to the area last year right before this move having no expectations of the area except I always liked the TV show Northern Exposure, and, well, I just fell in love with it. Vancouver was beautiful -- that bridge. Victoria Island was incredible. Seattle was a wonderful city. I made it to Portland this year and liked it. I'm going to be looking for ways to make a move a reality. We'll see.

[Melody]

You actually want to move again after all that? :;): It is beautiful here, I must admit, although BC is outrageously expensive for the most part. I was in Portland on business a few months ago - very nice State. Lots of green. Glad you found us, however inadvertently.

I hadn't considered the Nezzie x Variatus before, but you're right, they suit each other and couldn't help but compliment each other. I guess a bunch of us should get together and each attempt a cross, then trade the results.

I'm trying to remember if its Mayae that Bill is trying to get so he can do the Hifin Helleri cross with it... seems to me that's the one anyway. He was after them at the last convention, if I'm remembering the species correctly.

I can't believe just how many species are available to Livebearer enthusiasts. When you think of it, the odds are against that being the case, what with threatened habitats, extinction, etc. Dedicated livebearer breeders have done good work over the years.

[stanman]

Hi,

I bet it was mayae. Mayae has a long based dorsal fin in the helleri shape so it should theoretically work well with the hi fin gene. I'm surprised no one has made the variatus x nezzie cross yet. People keep trying it with hi fin swords when to me the hi fin variatus is the natural choice. I think everyone is kind of starting the crosses on their own. Now we need to just keep in touch.

Yes, moving again would not be fun but it might be worth it. I'm amazed at how often people move around these days even cross country. Plus I'm not going to be staying in the place I'm living in more than one more year anyway. Once you pack, besides cost, what's 10 miles or 3000 miles! What isn't expensive now days and at least the PNW has something nice to look at when you walk outdoors and that's kind of free. I didn't notice that BC was that costly.

[Melody]

Depends on what you're comparing it to I suppose - next to other Provinces, its very high. I call it British California - you pay for the weather. Its Canada's hot spot weather-wise. The view depends on where you are, and you pay dearly for that too. My view consists of one line of trees and an apartment building, but its a good neighbourhood so I can't complain too much. If money is no object, its a rocking place to hang out.

Good point on the packing thing. I hate moving. Granted, I don't know anyone who enjoys it.:twitcy:

Its fun discussing the possibilities in crossing this species with that, especially when there's nobody around to tsk tsk while you try to discuss it.:;): How about this one... Darrell's Platy dorsal in wild-type colours on a wild-type fish that otherwise looks like a wild-type. Did ya get all that? :laugh:

[stanman]

Hi,

So you want to recreate Bill Hearin's original blue red tail hi fin variatus. It was a fine fish and it doesn't even involve crossing species to get it. The blues, sunsets, black and rubynose are my favorite variatus colors. I guess you've seen the $200 Chinese "sailfin" swords on Aquabid. $100 a pair for swordtails! Its a new world. The more I look at pictures the more I think that's a new mutation but who knows. Maybe someone will do an in-depth article.

Well, I guess the upside to an expensive BC is that it limits the number of people who can live there. Good thing I'm a US citizen so I'm not tempted :-). Money is always a big consideration when you're a teacher. Good thing I like simple things. I don't know if I'm happy but I'm often satisfied.:err: :yes:

[Melody]

LOL Well there is something to be said for 'adequate'.

I have some Hifin Redtail Blues - the colour is great but the Hifins need work.... a lot of work, but they have potential. As much as I love to get stock from the masters, I also like working my own. It has always been inspirational to me that Darrell couldn't find the quality Hifins that he saw in the mag's, so he took some good ol' store Hifins and created the breathtaking creatures he has today.... and it was a small scale operation too. That's talent, knowledge and dedication.

Those Aquabid Swordtails were nothing short of amazing. I promptly sent the pic to Jim because he lucked out when one similar arrived ... at a store I think, and his friend told him about it. He figures it came from there too.

The rays in those fish were certainly unique... definitly something different there, be it an outcross or .... ?

[stanman]

Hi,

I had a super strain of hi fin swords, very large bodies ( 4"-5") with males AND females carrying very very wide full dorsals that went beyond their caudals. They were the best I ever had and some of the best I'd ever seen. I had them for 6 generations and they'd produce about 15 excellent fish in each 100+ batch of fry. The rest were good but not great. This strain came from a young female hi fin lyretail red brick sword I spotted in a tank of 500 mixed lyretails. I nabbed her and grew her up into a spectacular fish. I bred her to a nice green neon male as I've always found that bricks and greens get the best hi fins and body size and she dropped 3 batches of 200+ fry before she died in yet another child birth. I think I fed her too richly and the fry were too large and too numerous in her. She looked to be in perfect health. That's a risk with a protein rich diet. So from a shop fish 2 inches long I raised some fine fish. It can easily be done. I think nuture is often a bigger problem than nature in people's tanks. Livebearers are not easy if you want good to great ones. They eat you out of house and home and turn you into a water boy but somehow its worth it when you watch their antics. They truly seem to play. I'd like to have Darrel's rubynose fish.

I thought Jim already had bred a Chinese "sailfin" sword to his lyretails and had spectacular fry coming out everywhere? Didn't he write that in the Bulletin?

[Melody]

He's had it for quite some time so I'm sure you're right. I haven't had a chat with him since I sent him the pic actually... time flies.

Yup, Livebearers have a charm and a challenge all their own. If you're into fancies there is always always always room for improvement, and if not improvement, a whole new route... that's the addiction. :;): I've been into them for years and the enthusiasm never leaves me. I often think that I should take a break from them and get into easier fish, like Cichlids or whatever, but I'd quickly lose interest in fishkeeping if I did. I do have other community fish here and there, but I don't remember when I didn't have at least some Livebearers on the go. They always keep me thinking, and I like thinking, pondering, theorizing... that kinda thing.

[AdrianHD]

Very good reading...
I met Bill Hearin about 11 years ago.. My friend was renting a fish farm next door
to his house.. I wonder at times if he had anything to do with farm.. Maybe his at one time ??? Hes was older gentleman , 70 to about 80 ? I still pass by his house once in a while but have never knocked on door.. I don't even know if still alive ??
Every I pass by , I feel like kicking my self for not taking a picture with him..
I knew who he was and his work.. I chat with him few times about his platies but not indepth.. Reason I stopped going to fish farm, Friends dad pass away and farm was sold to other individuals.. Any way sorry to run on about bill. It true was a pleasure
to have met him..

Friend I use to visit at farm =(( Big Importer ))He use to get the biggest Sailfins , Thick healthy fish from Tampa and Orlando.. They were Orange , orange wagtails , Black sailfins and black Sphenops and Most of the modern color strains but giant stock.... Many wild cichilds from south american and few wild livebearers...

Orlando had the variatus strain in wich the males and female's dorsal would nicely flow all the way back beyond tail. They did not have much color.. Yellow dorsal , brown/yellow body... Strain bred true...

Now the real reason for hijacking this thread.. (( Good Info Stanman))..

I wanted to post pics of Strains I have = Spotted Petenensis .. I obtain Few spotted specimens on several occations from Armando Pou with in the ((last two years))..
I have also Obtain Spotted Velifera From Armando Pou .. The veliferas were obtain first.. Many times we share fish and knowlege ..

I don't know if the strains Stanman has obtain are from same person.. ??
If so would like to compare notes on offsprings ..

[Melody]

You're not hijacking, you're contributing :Smile: .

They are beautiful fish! No wonder Mr. Stanman is so fascinated with them. Thanks for showing us what they look like.

[stanman]

Yes, Adrian, Armando is an old friend of mine too. I sent him my populations of velifera and petenensis a few years ago but I believe he lost those. I also sent Armando spotted Phalloceros, nezzie swords and monties. He sent me some of his lovely red sword x monty crosses and I crossed them with some hi fins I had then and sent a male back to him which he used to breed. He also sent me the red picta and I raised 100's -- like raising guppies. Clapsadle has those now too. I like the goldish females on those. The velifera and petenensis I sent Armando are the ones Clapsaddle raises now -- enormous fish. Armando sent me a latipinna x petenensis cross about 8 years ago. They lacked swords like yours but produced gorgeous, strong classic looking marbled latipinna like fish. I think Armando told me he thinks these new sworded petenensis either came from the survivors of that older cross or they are a mutation of pure petenensis. He does not seem to be absolutely sure. They certainly look more petenensis than the old strain did. Armando sent me the newer wild caught black spotted velifera last summer and I now have 4 adult males and 15 females. The males are either solid black or 99% and the females range from spotted to marble to black. I have a new batch of fry coming up that are starting to spot. It will be months before I know if any will be all black. The greens from this line are also very colorful. The fry have more barring when young than my old population of green velifera. Also, they produce an almost silver like molly baby among the green ones. Some of the marbled ones have nice nearly whitish bodies under the black. One all black male has white lips like lipstick. I just need more room.

You should go talk to Hearin again and find out the exact story of his hi fin variatus cross before it is lost forever.

[Melody]

I just need more room.

My tank space is your tank space - I wouldn't even charge you for boarding them. :Angel:


You should go talk to Hearin again and find out the exact story of his hi fin variatus cross before it is lost forever.


Agreed!

[AdrianHD]

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