Salt?

[mixixe]

Do you guy sput salt in all your livebearers tanks? I read on some websites that they need salt, others that say that they don't. I have forgotten to add salt after several waterchanges.. and my guppies are fine.

My swords are not doing as well though.

[thegrandpoohbah]

My livebearer tanks get a little bit of crushed coral in the filer to raise the hardness. A little tip I picked up from Melody. So far everyone has done very well.

[blainep]

Generally, consistantly hard water and stable PH and temps around 77 degrees (25 Celcius) is all they need.

But I have found that some commercial livebearers seem to need a little salt. I'm not really sure why. Possibly they are weak from inbreeding or something similar.

Some seem to thrive without salt, some seem to thrive with some.

Only thing I can say for certain, a little salt won't hurt them.

[mixixe]

Ok, well my guppies are doing great... my pH 7.5 temp is about 78 degrees, but my swordtails, males only are starting to die off. Their bodies are starting to warp so their spines are starting to look curved and tail end of their bodies are pointing down. They have both died already, but i'm just worried about the other fishes in the tk, which seem normal. I also notice my male guppies dont last very long but my females are very robust. any ideas onwhy I'm having these problems? when I test the water its always fine, everything is 0 except for no3 which is usually under 5ppm.

[Melody]

Livebearers purchased at the retail level are often hit and miss. Choose the privately owned, reputable stores or private breeders.

As for salt, the common domestic strains don't 'need' it exactly, but it does keep the bacteria levels down, which many of the lower quality Livebearers need a hand with. They pick up everything, especially Guppies. Quarantine is absolutely crucial with Livebearers. It is suspected that many of the Livebearers, including Mollies, don't need the salt so much as the minerals, namely calcium, so you can try bringing that up. If you do use salt, use a bit of marine salt, not aquarium salt.

Otherwise, Swordtails like the temp's a little lower, but I doubt yours are high enough to kill them. Likely a bug more than anything you acitvely did or didn't do. Sorry to hear that you're struggling with them - I know how frustrating that can be.

[hp10BII]

It is suspected that many of the Livebearers, including Mollies, don't need the salt so much as the minerals, namely calcium, so you can try bringing that up. If you do use salt, use a bit of marine salt, not aquarium salt.


O.K. so it's not really the salt, but raising the GH/TDS of the water then. I guess salt is a cheap way of raising GH.

[mixixe]

I dose calcium with every water change. though I haven't lately b/c I haven't been doing waterchanges b/c of the water. Is it possible to overdose calcium? B/c i'm wondering why my swordtails' spines started turning crooked... I dont have a test for calcium..but maybe I should get one. Is a GH test enough?

[Melody]

O.K. so it's not really the salt, but raising the GH/TDS of the water then. I guess salt is a cheap way of raising GH.

Calcium and kH are my focus, but I also use a bit of seasalt. The health of my Livebearers has greatly improved, but I also started studying immunity and making food in my cauldron around the same time....lol.

This is all theory of course, albeit some very experienced and educated people doing the theorizing. There are those who have beautiful Livebearers in soft water, including Mollies. Personally, I think there's more to it than just the calcium, but the calcium does improve things it seems. They also respond to very clean conditions, coming back to stability and perhaps a fresh influx of minerals on a regular basis.

This is a good article that explains the theory in regards to Mollies, but brings it around to other Livebearers too. It is written by Ted Coletti, 'Livebearers' columnist for TFH mag, so he knows his stuff:

http://tcoletti.tripod.com/molly_salt_debate.html

[Melody]

I dose calcium with every water change. though I haven't lately b/c I haven't been doing waterchanges b/c of the water. Is it possible to overdose calcium? B/c i'm wondering why my swordtails' spines started turning crooked... I dont have a test for calcium..but maybe I should get one. Is a GH test enough?

You can't OD on calcium for snails, but it does harden your water. When you mess with that, you can have fluctuations which can stress your fish. Using a bit of coral in the filter, Tufa Rock, etc, will raise things gradually and keep the pH stable.

The bent spine will often come with any health problem - they're hunched over more than anything. Its pronounced if they've lost weight too. There are problems that have that as a symptom, such as fish TB and some parasites, but usually that would hit more than just the two of them.

I have had losses in smaller tanks when adding a bit of calcium/magnesium, so it can cause a pretty sharp rise in smaller environments. Maybe over time it has stressed them, or your water was significantly harder than they are accustomed to.

gH is a decent indicator, but its really not the focus for snails - we're more concerned with the Ca and kH. pH is only a factor if it dips below 7. However, gH and pH are important to your fishies. kH is your stabilizer and its good for everything in the tank. Once I focused on kH and calcium, the rest fell into place.

I wouldn't obsess over it, but if you're messing with the hardness with chemicals, it can't hurt to have it tested. Most fish stores will do it for you if you bring a sample in.

For store Livebearers in general, I suggest buying a pregnant female, bring her home and put her into a brooder/q-tank alone. If you can get her to give birth before she dies, you'll have much stronger fish in her fry because they'll be raised properly by you :) . If she survives, all the better.

[mixixe]

OK, thanks for the advice. :)

[Melody]

I'd be interested in hearing how it goes in your tanks. We're all still trying to figure it out with any certainty, so the more experiences we base our theories on the better.

I forgot that Ted mentions Bill Allen in his article. Bill is the friend of mine that I'm always going on about....lol. I have his Liberty Mollies, Nezzie Swordtails, Albino Red Swordtails, Plumetail Platy's, etc. He wrote his own article about the whole hardness theory from a completely opposite perspective, since he collects Mollies from soft water. I'll see if he'll give me permission to post it. There may be copyright issues since it was published.... in TFH I believe. If nothing else, I'll get the issue number from him.