Does anyone use anything besides live food......

[Pamelajo]

for the fry of egg laying fish?
I am asking because awhile back I was trying to breed my Boes. Rainbows and was told I needed to use vinegar eels that was the only thing small enough for them. Could not get any so gave up on trying to breed for the time being. I am not good with live food. Is there any kind of food out there that is not live small enough for fry such as rainbows, white clouds etc?

[PPulcher]

Pam, it's not just the size of the food, but also what I call the 'wiggle' factor. Most fry are programed to go after small things that wiggle and swim around, so sometimes it is difficult to get them to take other types of food. There are substitutes like golden pearls (in various sizes) and Cyclop eeze. Even a cultured sponge filter or a big wad of java moss will have some little creatures in it for the fry to eat.

That said, there is nothing quite live food to get fry growing quickly. You might be able to start a culture of infusoria for those really tiny fry. There are lots of recipes for this out there. Greenwater also works as a good first food for teeny fry. Vinegar eels can be done next. They are easy to keep going, but a pain to harvest. From there, you can move up to walter worms or microworms. If you can mix baby cereal, you can can culture these! Once the fish get larger, live baby brine shrimp will give you excellent results. They are easily hatched in small vessels like goldfish bowls.

[Katalyst]

Pam I have an extra microworm culture I can give you when I see you. Andrew was kind enough to start me a vinegar eel and microworm culture when I met up with him a few weeks ago. I'd be happy to share both with you. :)

[Melody]

Doug White (http://www.deltaguppies.com) in Ontario has cultures as well, for anyone else who might need them, and member 'Mykiss' here in BC.

The substitutes (ie: Golden Pearls) are supposed to move in the water and they come in sizes small enough for eggers. Some Rainbows are exceptionally small when they are born and Microworms are often recommended, along with infusorians as mentioned. Of course, your snails will help you populate with infusorians and plants also help sustain good colonies. If you can place the tank near a window so it gets some sunlight, you'll get even more critters and greenwater. Not all day sun, as you know, but I thought I'd mention it for the benefit of those who don't.

Even if powdered food is too large for them to eat when dropped, it soon softens enough for them to pick at. Its smaller than microworms & eels so I can't see it being a problem. I think the size concern is based (or was based) on the assumption that we would all feed our newborn fry live foods. Of the live foods, those are the smallest. If nothing else, the tiny food would feed infusorians and encourage them to breed.

Although I don't think movement is absolutely necessary with the majority of fry, I firmly believe that it is good for them to chase it down. If you have internal filtration it will keep the food moving about in the water and if not, a fine-mist airstone with a pinched airline (so there's not too much current) will also keep the food dancing throught the water. Being big on naturally sourced nutrition, that aspect of live food also appeals. I would also rather spare them the chemicals & synthetics involved in commercial foods.

Then of course you have the egg yolk (http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2403), which is risky business but you're experienced enough to watch your water quality.

Rainbows need their greens and I also believe that growing omnivores/herbivores should have it in their diet from day one if at all possible. Your algaes are very high in vegetable protein (along with a host of vitamins, minerals & immunity building properties) which should also contribute to fast growth. Naturose and Spirulina powder would be good in that respect. You can also gutload your live foods and get the best of both worlds.

Fast growth is great but I don't focus on it. I think if it is pushed too much beyond the natural growth rate it will have negative effects, such as shortened lifespans and weak bone structure. Fast growth makes it that much more crucial that we provide a complete diet. Rainbows are very slow growers though, so I doubt that will be a concern no matter how hard you try...lol.

Keep in mind that my views on diet aren't exactly conventional...lol...but that's my input.

[PPulcher]

Pam I have an extra microworm culture I can give you when I see you. Andrew was kind enough to start me a vinegar eel and microworm culture when I met up with him a few weeks ago. I'd be happy to share both with you. :)

I meant to say I would share too, but I got too wrapped up in the post! If you want to try hatching some brineshrimp eggs, I can also give you a small sample to try.

[PPulcher]

The substitutes (ie: Golden Pearls) are supposed to move in the water and they come in sizes small enough for eggers.

I didn't know this. Thanks for the info!

[Katalyst]

I didn't know this. Thanks for the info!

I have some from John if you want to try it.

[Pamelajo]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Kat I would love to start up both cultures, so would gladly take some. I was thinking about getting some from John, but waiting cause I am going to Big Al's this weekend so will probably not have money left. Want to stock up on some things I can't get here. Hey Kat what are you doing on Sat. I am heading out to the Hamilton one but will be at the EAst Gate mall for awhile will have time for coffee. Steph and Brayden will be doing some shopping.
Andrew thanks for the offer but I will see Kat sooner, actually before Christmas.

[Katalyst]

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Kat I would love to start up both cultures, so would gladly take some. I was thinking about getting some from John, but waiting cause I am going to Big Al's this weekend so will probably not have money left. Want to stock up on some things I can't get here. Hey Kat what are you doing on Sat. I am heading out to the Hamilton one but will be at the EAst Gate mall for awhile will have time for coffee. Steph and Brayden will be doing some shopping.
Andrew thanks for the offer but I will see Kat sooner, actually before Christmas.

I'm going to be in New York Sat morning. Hmmmm I have a heat pack...I could pack it up and leave it at your door in a lined box like we use for shipping worse case scenario on the way to NY.

[Pamelajo]

I am not leaving til around noon. What time are you going through??

[Pamelajo]

I can meet you by the highway at Timmy's.

[Katalyst]

I am not leaving til around noon. What time are you going through??
I'll let you know tommorrow. :smile:

[Pamelajo]

k

[Katalyst]

But only if you take some snails lol.

[Pamelajo]

Fine. When are you coming home?

[Melody]

I didn't know this. Thanks for the info!

Aquanourriplus (http://www.aquanourriplus.com/boutique/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=60) carries several sizes. Apparently the air pockets in the food keeps it suspended and it mimics the movements of BBS. Uncle Rick's 'Better Than Brine', which I believe is the same thing or similar, is described as 'the food that swims'. You can find him on Aquabid.:smile:

[Katalyst]

Fine. When are you coming home?
You ask a lotta questions lady. I'm not quite sure...I was supposed to be home already for Thanksgiving which I missed today. ::(: The other half isn't feeling well at all so it really depends on how he's doing. I may end up just driving down to Buffalo to visit a girlfriend who recently moved there and then drive back later early Sat eve.

[Slipstream]

girlfriend eh? :notworthy:

[Pamelajo]

If you can mix baby cereal, you can can culture these!

Okay Andrew. Kat dropped of some a little while ago and I picked up some baby cereal what next???

Andrew I came across th is.
http://aquafacts.net/index.php?option=com_mambowiki&Itemid=50

[PPulcher]

You'll need a clean tupperware type container. An empty margarine tub works fine. Put a couple of very small holes in the lid for ventilation. Mix up some of the baby cereal with a little tepid water until it is a thick paste, but not soupy. Spread this on the bottom of the tub 1-2 cm thick. Sprinkle a little baking yeast on top of the mixture and an add a spoonful or two of the worm-laden media from the existing culture. Keep them in a warmish place. Mine live on top of the hot water tank. You should see the worms 'glistening' on top of the mixture in a day or two. Soon, they'll be crawling up the sides of the container where you can harvest them with a finger, or a Q-tip or paint brush if you don't like the idea of nematodes crawling on your skin ::D:.

I like to split the culture into two cultures, just in case something goes wrong. You'll need to start new cultures every couple of weeks. The old ones will decline and begin to smell bad.

Happy pitbull has another method: http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2364&highlight=microworms

I posted about an article that tested various MW media here: http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24777&postcount=16

[Pamelajo]

Thanks Andrew going to get it started be back in a few minutes.

[Pamelajo]

Done now fingers crossed everyone, that I don't kill these guys.

[Melody]

You'll need a clean tupperware type container. An empty margarine tub works fine. Put a couple of very small holes in the lid for ventilation. Mix up some of the baby cereal with a little tepid water until it is a thick paste, but not soupy. Spread this on the bottom of the tub 1-2 cm thick. Sprinkle a little baking yeast on top of the mixture and an add a spoonful or two of the worm-laden media from the existing culture. Keep them in a warmish place. Mine live on top of the hot water tank. You should see the worms 'glistening' on top of the mixture in a day or two. Soon, they'll be crawling up the sides of the container where you can harvest them with a finger, or a Q-tip or paint brush if you don't like the idea of nematodes crawling on your skin ::D:.

I like to split the culture into two cultures, just in case something goes wrong. You'll need to start new cultures every couple of weeks. The old ones will decline and begin to smell bad.

Happy pitbull has another method: http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2364&highlight=microworms

I posted about an article that tested various MW media here: http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24777&postcount=16

Very well explained :yes: .

I have to admit, Pam, I neglected my microworm cultures horribly and they still thrived. I'm sure they'll be fine.

I know it was mentioned but I'm going to say it again because I found out the hard way...

Ventilate your culture containers if you use yeast!

Suffice it to say that I once posted a thread entitled "Honey, I blew up the Microworms". :rolleyes:

[ChrissyFishy]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Sorry I pictured that. :Eeewww:

[Katalyst]

Since I am not a fan of nematodes touching my skin either this is what I did with my culture.

I took 4 bioballs. I placed 3 of them in the form of a triangle directly into the culture and the 4th ball I placed on top. The worms crawl up onto the bioball and then I just chuck the whole thing into my killie fry tank. Then I just put a new one in on top the exsisting 3 and disenfect the old one and start all over again the next day. Granted my husband is the one that pulls the wormy bioball out each morning. :)

[Melody]

LOL I was trying to figure out how that would be better until the last part cleared it up. I use Q-tips. Mr. Mykiss laughed at me because he uses his finger so he thinks I'm a girly girl. :Neener: @ Mr. Mykiss!

[Katalyst]

LOL I was trying to figure out how that would be better until the last part cleared it up. I use Q-tips. Mr. Mykiss laughed at me because he uses his finger so he thinks I'm a girly girl. :Neener: @ Mr. Mykiss!
I was just worried I was getting more oatmeal less worms and fouling the water so I figured the bioball would ensure more worms less oatmeal. The husband being on worm duty is just an extra bonus.

[Melody]

I only scraped the ones off that crawled up above the food and onto the sides. Tough to see them though, I'll have to use a darker container next time.

[PPulcher]

Melody, your culture might be old?

Here is a photo of one at it's peak. I do keep mine in a warm spot. This is on top of the hot water tank.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee104/Ppulcher/cultures/nemawhats.jpg

You can see the line of baby food in the bottom. The mass of white things are the nematodes crawling up the side of the container.

[Melody]

Naaa, there was a bazillion in there, I'm just old & blind. :laugh: I don't have one going at the moment, I ran out of time when I took the new job. Even Microworms can only take so much neglect...lol.

[Pamelajo]

Okay I started the micro worms on the weekend they are on top of the fridge. The pablem looks holey now. I am assuming that they are eating they were through it. Is this what is supposed to happen. None on the side yet.

[PPulcher]

If you look at the top of the media in a bright light, you should be able to see the worms moving around it in. It is hard to describe, but good words are 'glistening' and 'seething'

[Pamelajo]

Ok will give it a try, but the eyesight is not the best when it comes to small close up stuff.

[Pamelajo]

I have got seething and glistening now. It is hard to describe it, but now that I have actually seen it. I am assuming they will start to climb the sides soon. I tried the pablum way and the bread way. I think the pablum has more but then I started it a day earlier.

Now Vinegar eels- my culture is developing what l looks like dust bunnies on the bottom.

[PPulcher]

The VE culters do get looking quite grungy after a while. If you feed them apple slices (one small slice per month) then you get a lot of gunk in the bottom. I feed them apple juice dregs or a pinch of sugar when I remember. I take the cap of the culture bottle and plug it with some filter floss so they get some air.

The eels (really another nematode) live near the surface of the culture in the meniscus. If you hold it up to the light you should be able to see them swimming around. They are quite tiny.

[grumpystiltskin]

Ok will give it a try, but the eyesight is not the best when it comes to small close up stuff.
OH YEA? You gave me a hard time about my eyesight :Neener: :laugh:

[Pamelajo]

OH YEA? You gave me a hard
it's what I do!! And your not suppose to remember that.



You gave me a hard time about my eyesight
Always used to tease my Dad about him needing me to hold the newspaper on the other side of the table so he could read it. Now when I am up there visiting he laughs and then goes and gets me his glasses when I am trying to read something.
It all goes down hill at 29 and just keeps getting worse.
I only need glasses for reading.:Neener:

[grumpystiltskin]

I only need glasses for reading.:Neener:
Thats all i need glasses for as well lol, if i try to look out further from what im reading its all blurry , and im just over 29 as well hahahaha

[Pamelajo]

im just over 29 as well
ok :wink:
Love to stay and harass you but I have to go to work for 2:30 to replace a cook.

[Katalyst]

ok :wink:
Love to stay and harass you but I have to go to work for 2:30 to replace a cook.
Jeeze you have to go in for someone else again!?! I sure hope they appreciate you! They should!

[grumpystiltskin]

You go and cook up a storm Pam :laugh:

[Melody]

I have to cook this weekend too - cookies & an apple pie.

Luckily I bought them from someone at work who was fundraising for his kid...lol...but you have to cook them! That counts!

[Katalyst]

All of you cooking people have my address right? RIGHT? :twitcy:

Melody if you have to open the package/turn on an oven it counts. :yes:

[Melody]

That's what I thought. :yes:

[Pamelajo]

Jeeze you have to go in for someone else again!?! I sure hope they appreciate you! They should!
We will see when I ask for someone to replace me for 4 hours on Christmas day.

Between the course and being constantly called in or having my shifts rearranged, it is just nuts.

[Melody]

They should make YOU dinner for a change. :yes:

[Pamelajo]

I wish!!! I am off tomorrow and praying the phone does not ring. Planning on doing some waterchanges, laundry, maybe some baking, reading for my next unit and hanging out here in between.

[CACAdmin]

Solution.... if the phone rings, ignore it.:wink:

[grumpystiltskin]

Ring Ring'''''''''''''''''''''' Hello, Pam , stop what you are doing and come into work

Pam...... but ,huh what,:confused:

LOL sorry Pam, just getting you back:laugh:

[Pamelajo]

That is just nasty mr. grumpy.

[CACAdmin]

Ahhh, but maybe Grumpy's teasing worked... you're here, not at work.:wink: This is a good thing, right?:yes:

[Pamelajo]

Yep it did work phone has not rung all day, but have not had much time to spend here. And I am off shortly to Fish Club meeting/ our Christmas party. If I have time I will pop in when I get home if it is not too late.
Thanks Mr. Grumpy!! And yes you did owe me one.:rolleyes:

[grumpystiltskin]

LOL i can see you laughing . looks like you didnt have to go in :smile:

[Pamelajo]

Now for tomorrow I am scheduled for 8 - 4 see what you can do about keeping it that way. Please and thank you!

[Melody]

LOL You two could be married - nothing better than a good banter. :laugh: I don't watch TV for the most part, but when I did I used to like Mad About You because those two made bantering into the art that it should be.

Now I hang out in forums and simulate work. Oh how my life has grown. :rolleyes:

[Pamelajo]

:laugh:
Just an update my worm cultures are doing great lots shimmering movement in them. The only thing is they don't seem to climb the walls though??

[Katalyst]

:laugh:
Just an update my worm cultures are doing great lots shimmering movement in them. The only thing is they don't seem to climb the walls though??

Mine never seemed to either. :Think:

[PPulcher]

It sounds like your culture is working, Pam! I think you can get them to crawl up by reducing the oxygen in the container. If you have a lid with a hole in it, remove the lid and put a piece of plastic wrap over it for a few hours. The worms should respond by trying to climb out. Adding a little more yeast might also increase the CO2 in the container and make them crawl up.

Here's another method of harvesting. I've never tried it as I generally don't need millions of microworms (http://www.petfish.net/kb/entry/99/) at one time.

[Melody]

Glad its working out for you Pam! Mine always climbed and the container was ventilated to avoid a kaboom... maybe I just had too many though, the container wasn't that big. Oxygen deprivation sounds like a good plan.... sounds like a mean plan actually...lol...but I'll try not to call the SPCA on you.

Mostly because they'd laugh and hang up. :rolleyes: