Experienced neolamprologus occelatus owners

[Pamelajo]

I have two bigger ones. One is beautiful gold(m?) and the other (f?) kind of blotchy. Anyway there are smaller ones that they were picking on, and were beginning to hang out at the top of the tank. Separated them into a breeder at the moment cause I don't have another tank with that ph. Will set something up tomorrow. The two large ones are acting funny, kind of fighting then fine, then hanging out together. Flaring parallel to each other. The gold is burrowing out under a shell, the other watching. Could they possibly be going to mate. These are the first ones I have ever had and can't even tell them apart yet.
Any help would be appreciated.

[mykiss]

Pam, how large is the tank, what other fish do you have in the tank, and how many shells do you have in there?

As for sexing them, the larger ones are generally the males. Also, I find that my males have a darker side than the females. The females are smaller and are more 'pure' gold. Also, females at times have a pinkish belly region.

Once they spawn, either parents will defend the shell but I have found most of the times that the female defends it. I hope that helps. cheers
pat

[Pamelajo]

Hi Pat,
It is a ten gallon and there is only the 4 of them in there. Now just two. The one is a tad smaller and is the blotchy one with moments where she is gold, and has the mauve belly. The other is pure gold not mauve belly that I have seen so far.
There is a least 8 shells in there. The gold one seems to be the more aggressive.

[Pamelajo]

Ignore the algae. Slowing getting it under control
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/Pamela-jo/FishJan2307011.jpg

the one right here is the one from the previous pic. The bottom one is the other.http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a357/Pamela-jo/FishJan2307010.jpg

[mykiss]

Hhmmmmm... that's weird. I have about 15 of them in a 25g tank and even though the tank is larger, the density is higher. Perhaps when the density is high, they are less likely to pick on particular individuals so they stay close to their shells and not try to bother other fish as much, however, if there are few shells and few fishes, perhaps they get more protective and therefore more defensive of their shell. I'm guessing, if you add in more shells, and if it doesn't work, add in more occies later on?

I'd try the shell thing first as it's not as expensive. Good luck

[Pamelajo]

We now have a total of 12 shells so tried to put the 3rd guy back in and they both picked on him/her and would not share any shells. I have the shells spread throughout the tank back corners middle back some in front. There is also hygro, a crypt and a barnacle with java fern attached.

[hp10BII]

Pam,

I noticed that my occies became very territorial when they were in a spawning mood. I had 8 in a 20 gallon long, one day 4 were driven to the top...weren't allowed to claim any shells. I was in the process of setting up another tank for them when I spotted fry scampering out of 1 shell. I have 2 pairs, exhibiting the same behaviour and it's only the unmatched ones that were driven to the top.

Apparently, the males claim about a 1 foot diameter area for his territory, so both pairs claimed their side of the tank. I try to break up the sightlines with rocks, and plants so there isn't as much aggression. The male will tolerate a female in his territory...but just barely, she can keep a shell in his territory, but he'll still chase her into the shell from time to time, but won't beat her up like the ones up top.

I have Zambian Blue occies. The females have a white strip running along the top of the dorsal, the males more yellow/gold.

[Pamelajo]

I am hoping they are getting ready to spawn, they have never acted this way before. I have set up a small tank for the other two. I would love to see a pic of you blue ones. Never seen them before.

[hp10BII]

If you spot one fish constantly hovering over a shell and using her pec fins to fan over the opening, she's probably the female. I think she does that to circulate water over the eggs/fry. You'll probably notice within a week, seems like they do best when you ignore them. Some people tape paper around that part of the tank glass surrounding her shell.

My females are constantly darting in and of their shells as the male approaches. Never a peaceful moment with occies, but still more peaceful with the unpaired occies are moved to a new tank.

I'm considering adding some dithers down the road to my occie tank, just gives the male something else to stare at instead of harassing the female all the time. Dwarf neon rainbowfish seems to work o.k.

[hp10BII]

My first choice were to get a group of gold ocellatus, but tough to find any occies, let alone gold occies around here. But I'm happy with my blues, my goal was to get one matched pair, but ended with 2.

This is a young juvenile blue occie, just over an inch long when I picked them up last November.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/hp10BII/IMG_5817.jpg

Female guarding her brood of frys:

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/hp10BII/IMG_6110.jpg

[Pamelajo]

Nice thanks for sharing! I have not noticed my female fanning yet, I think they may be just starting. Will keep you posted. The other thing is one of them keeps burying the other shells that are not being used.

[hp10BII]

Typical occie behaviour, bury shells they aren't using so other occies can't claim them. Just have to watch that they don't bury shells with an occie still in them. :mad:

[Pamelajo]

Can you tell from the pics I posted on the first page of this thread who's who??

[hp10BII]

I tried earlier, but couldn't ID it. They say that for wild caughts and F1's females have the white outling their dorsal fins, whereas the males are more coloured. Successive generations seem to lose this trait. Of the 2 pairs that I have, the males are noticeably larger than the females.

[Pamelajo]

These two both have a yellowish outline on their dorsal. The blotchy one seems a little smaller, put not positive. I watched them from a far tonight and the golder one seems to own 2/3 of the tank, wanders over most of it, but blotchy seems to stay to the far 1/3

[hp10BII]

Cichlids have such idiosyntric personalities, each one could be so different from others.

Just guessing because the bigger one haven't driven off the blotchy one to the top corners that he's accepted he/she into his territory, that's why I'm guessing blotchy's a female. Doesn't mean that he won't still take runs at her, mine does it all the time...the females are always ready to dive for cover into their shell when they see the males approaching.

We'll know soon enough in a few weeks...good luck!!

[hp10BII]

I like this article on breeding occies:

http://cichlidae.com/tank.php?id=230

[Pamelajo]

Fingers crossed here too! Thanks for the article.

[Pamelajo]

Update the so called male had kicked the other one out of her shell. So she was left hanging out at the top of the tank, with no where to call home. Plus the two others I have in different containers, because they were homeless.
So last night did some rearranging moved all of them to a 20 gallon, so far so good. Everyone seems to have a shell and no one is hanging out at the top. The male seems to have 1/2 the tank and the other 3 are sharing the other 1/2. I did add 3 large fake plants to breaks things up, tons of shells and ornaments.

[hp10BII]

aaarghh...some males are such pooh heads. But it happens, sometimes the male just won't tolerate any fish in his turf, other times the female rejects him.

My 2 pair were both producing fry in the 20 long when the more aggressive male decided he wanted the whole tank to himself. I had to move the other male as he was hiding on top of a powerhead and my fear is that the dominant male would eventually kill him. Everything I've read says the male claims a foot diameter territory but I'm finding something different. Timed out the dominant male, rearranged the tank, things worked for a day then back to the corner again.The person that picked up up my stray male for her African tank says in the wild, a male can actually claim a large territory (for a small fish) up to 10 x 10 feet.

So you're doing the right things, blocking sight lines, rearranging decor. If that doesn't work, try some slate pieces to physically divide territories. Failing that, maybe it may be best to remove the big male to a separate tank for awhile...I'd be interested to see how the remaining occies sort themselves out, perhaps there may be a more peaceful match there.

[Pamelajo]

He better not decide to take over the whole 20 g tank. :err:I will be keeping an eye on these guys as I don't want to lose any, and will keep you posted.

[hp10BII]

One thing if you haven't done so already, space your shells in small groups of say 2 or 3 at least 8" apart from each other with maybe something in between to block their sight lines. It gives the fish less reasons to explore if they don't readily see another shell close by.

[Pamelajo]

Thanks

[Pamelajo]

Okay checked the shells one little guy only had one. So fixed that. Behaviour very friendly tonight between the three previous outcasts. Visiting each other back and forth with no aggression a little flaring, but just looked like a warning, no nipping at all.

The male is keeping to his 1/2 of the tank.
Fingers crossed that this behaviour keeps up.

[Pamelajo]

The male has now taken over the other side of the tank and only allowing the female and one small one the other small one is hiding among the plants up top. So stuck a temporary divider in and moved male and female to his side and leaving the two smaller ones on the other half.

[CACAdmin]

Sounds like a good, even if temporary, solution. Good luck!

[Melody]

Can't wait to hear the birth announcement!

[Pamelajo]

If they ever get on with it. I know now why they call these little fish bull dogs! I have seen bickering, but lately it has been more than that and that is just what they remind me of when they are fighting. So hopefully this arrangement works. Checked on them tonight and the male can get through the divider but seemed content on the females side. So the little still have shells to call home. Nothing sadder than one of these little guys hanging out at the top cause all his/her shells have been confiscated by the big bad male.

[Melody]

Maybe the divider gives him enough of a territory - interesting actually.

[Pamelajo]

Update
Everyone has finally settled in their new tank. Had to do some rearranging of ornaments to block views. All four are now living peacefully in the tank and was able to take out the make shift divider I was using. The one thing I noticed with the two smaller ones that I have never seen them do is they have piled the sand around their shells like ant hills. It could be because this tank does not have as much sand as the last. I just had the end of the bag not quite enough. Will eventually get some more.

[hp10BII]

Probably a contradiction of 2 wants though. I so wanted a little community of occies cohabitating together and maybe some breeding on the side, but when a pair formed, it was no longer fun and games for the unpaired ones. Once you see any form of breeding activity, my guess is that their instincts will take over and the male will want to claim as much territory as he can. If you do breed for you, the male may tolerate the fry/juveniles for awhile though.

[CACAdmin]

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear everybody has settled down and are living peacefully. If it were me (& I know nothing about keeping these fish), I would be worried about changing anything at this point (even if it's only adding sand.:wideeyed: ). I'd be scared that it might just trigger another territory issue... but then what do I know? Best to fFollow your own instincts. :yes:

Good luck!

[Pamelajo]

If I do decide to add more gravel it will only be a cup at a time. Don't want to disturb anything and upset the apple cart.:no:

[Pamelajo]

Update:
The two bigger ones I have determined are both males. The ones I thought were juvies are not but females. I finally separated the one male as he again tried to take over the whole tank.
This morning I was checking out this tank as I was thinking about moving them back to the 10 gallon after I find a home for the extra male. This is one of the tanks I plan on trying my plenum on so need to move occupants out. And.................... low and behold on the side with the two females and good male I thought I saw something scurry into a shell. With magnifying glass in hand I see much to my surprise at least five little ones. Don't have a clue how old they are, but appear to be doing well.

[CACAdmin]

Congrats Pam! That is so cool... and you even managed to get a pic.:thumbup:

[hp10BII]

Congratulations! I'm guessing when the other male was separated, things calmed down enough for the fishies to do what they do best. I find that if the female is constantly by her shell, especially fanning her fins by the opening, she's guarding eggs/fry. Don't be too surprised if you see fry from the other female soon, too.

Once they're out of their shell, they can take bbs readily, but these days I used crushed bits/pellets meant for cichlids. Mom is usually a good parent with a new brood, she may soften the food and introduce it to the shell for the frys. Dad may be a tempermental occie dad and eat some young until he realizes that the frys are his.

My father occie is actually a better parent than the mom's. Once the next clutch of eggs comes along, she'll drive all the older fry away and they hang around pop's shell. Made the mistake of feeding frozen blood worms one time, in the excitement of falling bloodworms, pop rushed out and snatched a youngin' without blinking an eyelash. Last time they got any bloodworms...

Just got a new group of neolamprologus multifascitiaus, or "multies". Occies are harem breeders, so I'd like to establish a colony of multies.

[hp10BII]

Forgot to add, some professional breeders remove the shell full of fry to a separate grow out tank. More of the fry survive that way. They remove the shell and immediate replace it with an identical shell. They'll probably get nipped in the process but that's half the fun, a daring midnight raid. :laugh:

[CACAdmin]

I'll bet there's a good chance of getting nipped... :err: what else would you expect mama to do under the circumstances.

[hp10BII]

I'll bet there's a good chance of getting nipped... :err: what else would you expect mama to do under the circumstances.

lol...that's half the fun of owning these spunky characters. It doesn't really hurt and you know they're gonna take a run at you, but you never are quite prepared for it when they stretch open their mouths and latch onto you with a determined look to KILL, KILL, some maiming and more KILL, KILL, KILL!!!

Thankfully, they're only an inch or 2 big. :rolleyes:

[CACAdmin]

:rofl:

[hp10BII]

want some? ::D:

[Melody]

Congrat's Pam! Very nice work. :smile:

[CACAdmin]

want some? ::D:
Thanks they sound really cute but I don't have the space. I'll just enjoy them vicariously through you and Pam and anyone who has them.

[Pamelajo]

Today I counted 8 I think they are very hard to see against the sand I have in the tank. But most of them are hanging around about a half inch from the shell. They have taken up residence in the shell next to mom's but some are still returning to hers. I have no idea how old they are, but assuming since they are not hanging out right outside the shell that they are more than a day old. Mom must have been feeding them something as I did not start feeding them until I saw them yesterday. I am using a fry growth powdered food and will try micro pearls? I think that is what they are called tomorrow. I don't have any BBS. If they continue to breed I will invest in a BBS hatchery and feeder that stays in the tank and dispenses the shrimp.

[Melody]

Do you have a BA's close by Pam? The one here carries frozen fortified BBS. My fish really like the Golden Pearls & Decapsulated Brine eggs too.

[CACAdmin]

I know this doesn't help this time round but one thing which you can have on hand is the Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp... more expensive than hatching your own but always at the ready. It has an expiry date of something like a year and is good for 6 weeks after opening (must be kept refridgerated after opening). I always have fry so it never lasts 6 weeks...lol.

PS... keep counting... there may be more.::D:

[Pamelajo]

I have one about 3/4 hour away, so next time I am out there. I tried them on the decapsulated BBS, Golden pearls and the powdered growth food.
Today they are all over by Dad's shell and mom appears to be cleaning out her shell, maybe getting ready for the next batch??

[CACAdmin]

mom appears to be cleaning out her shell, maybe getting ready for the next batch?? Let's hope so. :smile:

[Melody]

Goodness - she's a busy lady! lol That's awesome Pam, they must be very happy.

[Pamelajo]

Update.
The first batch were about a month old when lost them after I moved them. Have I think one left from that batch, but now have another batch maybe two. Some are bigger so not sure if they are from another batch or are males. They are all doing fine and are over a month old. They are now hanging out with Dad or on their own. In about a month may start to move them to their own quarters as I have read some of the old fry will eat the younger ones.

[CACAdmin]

I'm sure you'll make the right decision regarding moving them as these are older. It's always a bit of a quandry when there are mouths big enough in the tank to dine on others.

[Pamelajo]

So far none of the babies have made it past a month or two. I have added oyster shells to their tank hoping my ph is too low for the babies. Apparently the adults don't mind it.

[hp10BII]

Do the babies get eaten? I have a psycho occie dad that tolerates the new fry for awhile then he goes bersek, harrassing poor mom and driving her to the top of the tank and all the fry are gone. I have the best success removing the newborn fry from the tank and raising them in their own tank. As soon as I notice fry in a shell, I remove the entire shell and replace it with another all in one shot.

Our water is soft here so I use aragonite sand with an oyster shell in the filter. I also add in epsom salt to raise GH to about 200 ppm, or about 10dH and some marine salt for trace elements. pH is 7.8. The occies are smiling...well except the terrorized mom and eaten babies. :realmad:

I'm going to redo that tank. Start off with 2 proven females and choose the best looking fry as heir replacement to pycho dad.

[Pamelajo]

The eating is a possibility, I never see any bodies laying around or floating.. Mom never hangs out at the top but one of them could be eating them for whatever reason. This has crossed my mind. At one point I thought it was because of water changes, but maybe it is because of the commotion or upset if mom is watching a new batch. Will try and separate next batch, which I think she may have now.
The last few days DAD has been hanging out in a shell, not coming out to eat. Almost like he is fanning something. Then last night mom was also in her shell when I fed, but popped out for a second but not long enough to eat.

[hp10BII]

I've seen mom snap at her older offspring, holding them in her mouth then letting go. Just a warning to stay away from her shell when it's holding eggs/babies. I've seen dad eat fry thinking they were bloodworms so I wouldn't be surprised at all when the fry are eaten.

I have multie shelldwellers too and I've heard that parents will eat fry if they think the tank is too crowded. I'm suspecting that with a new batch of fry, any older siblings just aren't tolerated and eaten. In the wild, they're just chased away but in a closed environment like a tank...

From what I've been told, commercial shelldweller breeders remove fry, shell and all when the fry are free swimming to ensure the highest survival rates. It's important to replace the removed shell immediately, in the same position if possible to not upset mom too much if you want them to continue breeding. That works for me, just be prepared for mom and dad to wail away on your hand when you take out the shell. :laugh: Once the fry are swimming on their own out of the shell they're too difficult to catch unless you want to siphon them out.

[Pamelajo]

Guess what I found last night??
Which probably is not helping with the baby dissappearances. A 1/2 inch older sibling. I sat and watched this tank last night for awhile, and caught something out of the corner of my eye. Inside pop's old shell is a much older baby. I removed the last two little babies that were in there for safe keeping.

[CACAdmin]

Hiding out in papa's old shell, where you wouldn't spot him, eh? Smart and yes, probably a good chance he's the culprit. Despite that, ti's good to know that one survived. I wonder if there are others.

[Pamelajo]

Maybe hiding out in another shell somewhere you never know. Poor pop has taken up residence in a much smaller shell. And this 1/2 inch child in this great big shell. I say he is a little spoiled and eliminating any of the competition to boot.

[CACAdmin]

That's priceless. Spoiled? :yes: I wonder how long pop will put up with that before he decides to challenge the little one for the bigger shell.

[Pamelajo]

That's priceless. Spoiled? :yes: I wonder how long pop will put up with that before he decides to challenge the little one for the bigger shell.
That is like kicking dad out of a double/queen/king sized bed to go sleep in a single. Not sure how long it will last. I surprised being cichlids he even allowed it. Unless it is because his new shell is between the little one and mom. Maybe the little one is a male, and he is not taking any chances.

[CACAdmin]

Maybe the little one is a male, and he is not taking any chances.
Establishing his territory before the little guy gets any ideas. :laugh:

[Pamelajo]

Okay I have given up on these guys. I lost dad a couple of weeks ago for no apparent reason, the teenager disappeared shortly after no sign of a body, Luckily mom had eggs in her shell. Last week they were out and about and I separated the female just in case she was eating them. After a water change of only 10% lost all the fry. My lonely female has gone to live with a club member who took my others as they were being forced out. He will be keeping the line going so if I ever decide to start again will be able to get some back from him.

[CACAdmin]

That's too bad but at least the line will keep going. Maybe with seeing how he does with them, you'll be able to figure out what the problem was and possibly try again.

[Pamelajo]

Knowing he would continue the line made it easier to give her up.

[firestorm]

So sorry to hear that. My male decided to commit suicide a few weeks ago, now I have 2 females.......need to find another male :wideeyed: But how on earth will I ever find another F1 male. I wanted to breed mine badly because they are still high up in the chain. I wonder why all the fry would have died from the water change though. Maybe they need their mother to help them for the first little bit of their lives.

[Melody]

How frustrating for you! :hugs: I've certainly known you long enough to know they received optimum care so I guess it was just one of those things. Is your friend on a different water supply?

[Pamelajo]

No I don't believe so, but he specializes in cichlids, and may buffer the water more than I. I had oyster shell in the filter of that tank, but think maybe the ph was not quite high enough for the little ones even though the parents managed to breed. I added water slowly when changing it, but maybe just the difference in the fresh water was enough to cause a little disturbance in the tank. He has bred them and other shell dwellers, but will check and see what he is doing different, when I am ready to try again.

[hp10BII]

Sorry to hear about the troubles. If you like shellies, maybe "multies" might be a better fit. Not nearly as aggressive, they are more colonial spawners and the generations of fry help raise their siblings. Not as colourful as gold ocellatus but looks can only go so far. :rolleyes:

I have both, they're different in personalities but if I had to choose just one, it would be multies for me.

[Pamelajo]

Multies were actually my first choice but at that time we could not get any around here. Maybe when I try again I will give them a try. Right now their tank is now housing my Celestial Pearl Danios.

[hp10BII]

So sorry to hear that. My male decided to commit suicide a few weeks ago, now I have 2 females.......need to find another male :wideeyed: But how on earth will I ever find another F1 male. I wanted to breed mine badly because they are still high up in the chain. I wonder why all the fry would have died from the water change though. Maybe they need their mother to help them for the first little bit of their lives.

Gads...I had an excess of F1 males - 5 that were punted out of the tank by the resident alpha male. Zambian Blue Occelatus though.

[hp10BII]

Multies were actually my first choice but at that time we could not get any around here. Maybe when I try again I will give them a try. Right now their tank is now housing my Celestial Pearl Danios.

Definitely! Shellies are my fun tanks to watch, especially the multie tank. Occies are a hoot too when they are first establishing territories, but after they're set and all they do is eat and breed, it becomes routine.

[firestorm]

Gads...I had an excess of F1 males - 5 that were punted out of the tank by the resident alpha male. Zambian Blue Occelatus though.

I ended up finding out I must have a male, since they bred :yes: They are zambian blue's as well, and pretty little guys at that. I love my shellies and will never part with them if I had to downgrade my tanks.

I have never had any problems having to adjust the pH for them, but it's probably because our's is about 7.6 which is middle of the road for keeping many types of cichlids. Pam, if you are wanting to keep them in the future, I say buy some crushed coral sand for a substrate, and use things like limestone rocks in for deco. The shells you use for them will also slowly deteriorate and provide a higher pH for them. You don't need to use chemical buffers, just these few simple things to help raise pH. But you might want to age your water using a few limestone rocks or something else, so that you don't get large pH swings with every water change.

[Pamelajo]

Firestorm, I had crushed coral in the filter and oyster shell in there two. My ph was 7.8 but I had read they need higher than that. Several batches disappearing or dying and then loosing the male, made me decide to give them up temporarily.

[firestorm]

Oh ok. Well then in your case you might need to add buffers and raise the pH. I know it is much easier to raise pH than to lower it. I just checked the pH of my occie tank and found it was at 8.4, no wonder why mine are doing so good, yet my tap water usually has a reading of about 7.9 pH. So I don't know why there is such a big difference since I only have the shells in the tank, and I do have a piece of driftwood. Hopefully in the future you will keep them again and be able to enjoy them :yes:

[Pamelajo]

Hey no fair you did not even have to try to get it to 8.4.

[Melody]

My water is completely different than yours, but you may want to play with Aragamilk. It's potent stuff, as in a single drop/5-10g's has made a difference in the snail shells.:eek: When I tried to use the Cichlid amounts recommended at first, it actually popped my pH up too far and I got some nasty pitting. I'm not big on additives but if you use just a bit to boost your other efforts, it's not an issue. This is aragonite so it's much better suited for the purpose that the alternatives.

[firestorm]

The problem with our hard water though is it's not as good for keeping the fish I especially love, which are SA cichlids. So breeding these for me will be more of a challenge.

Aragamilk sounds interesting. I guess snails do need more calcium and stuff in the water to keep their shells hard.

[Pamelajo]

Thanks Mel. I was also thinking that I may have to age the water using filtration with crushed coral and oyster shell, in case that is part of the problem. Even though I only changed small amounts of water on that tank and did add it back slower than any other tank.
But I will have to wait til I am done with school when I have more time to play with that.

[Melody]

Trial & error is so difficult when there's living creatures involved. Hopefully with the help of local breeders who deal with the same water supply, you'll be able to find the key to success.

[Pamelajo]

I may try the multies like suggested as I was originally looking for those, when these became availables. And I would really like a true colony of them.

[hp10BII]

IME, I'm finding the multies a little bit more sensitive to water conditions, but when you get it right, they'll breed like rabbits for you. Our water is very soft, I do age it overnight filtering through aragonite to match the pH, I use aragonite sand for my shellie tanks. I add epsom salt to up the GH during water changes and marine salt for trace elements and adults and fry do ok for me with this, even with 50% water changes.

[Melody]

I quite often forget that the salts are great for Cichlids as I can only use a bit with snails in my tanks. Thanks for mentioning them! I've read before that they respond very well to the addition.

A caution for anyone reading who will be trying these methods for the first time: Do it very slowly with several days between increases. There is often an accumulative effect. Make sure you test the water religiously while experimenting. Rather than risk your fish, you may want to start your testing on an empty tank of aquarium water.

[hp10BII]

I quite often forget that the salts are great for Cichlids as I can only use a bit with snails in my tanks. Thanks for mentioning them! I've read before that they respond very well to the addition.

A caution for anyone reading who will be trying these methods for the first time: Do it very slowly with several days between increases. There is often an accumulative effect. Make sure you test the water religiously while experimenting. Rather than risk your fish, you may want to start your testing on an empty tank of aquarium water.

Yes, very true. These are Africans cichlids, where their native waters are high pH, very hard and naturally high in sodium. I spent the better part of a day testing my water by experimenting with the amounts of additives and getting initimate with my 5 gallon bucket.