Hybrids

[Melody]

This can be a hot topic so let's keep in mind that we're all entitled to our opinion. Its a good discussion and one I've enjoyed with several people without bloodshed :cool: .

[mykiss]

lol...I"m trying to get use to all these neat buttons!

Yup, that's a hot topic. Many don't care but there are those 'purists' who believe that hybrids should be feeders.

I find that there are a lot of neat looking fishes which are hybrids and many fishes we see in the market are hybrids but many don't know that they are....such as some starins of platties/swordtails (I think that's right? ...Melody correct me if I am wrong...).

Also, in the wild there are hybrids always occuring, but generally at low numbers. These include bull trout and dolly varden hybrids and rainbow trout and cutthroat trout hybrids. There are also many more but those were what popped in my head.

Also, looking at more of the root of the potential problem is the definition of hybrids. So, this can open a whole can of worms but I'm too tired to start it...lol

[Melody]

Yup, all sorts of hybrids out there and I suspect most purists have had them and don't even know it. ALL Red and Redwag Swordtails are Platy/Sword Crosses, for example, as are the particular hifins with the long, draping dorsal (not to be confused with a regular Swordtail hifin). That long dorsal is the product of a Variatus x Maculatus Platy which is then crossed with the Swordtail. Stores slap 'Helleri' on everything with a swordtail, but there are many varieties of Swordtails out there that could be mixed into the group or the fish's ancestry.

Platy's also frequently have Swordtail in their veins, as well as being crossed amongst themselves, such as X. variatus & X. maculatus. Those two Platy species are so heavily crossed that most hobbyists don't even know there ARE two different types commonly available.

Molly species are heavily crossed to a point that a pure one is only obtainable privately. The vast majority of Mollies at the commercial level are a mix of all or some of P. sphenops, P. velifera, P. latipinna and Heaven only knows how many other species.

Have you noticed the new colors of Guppies available lately? Even in show quality circles? Look closely and you'll see that many are the exact shade of the colors found in Endler's Livebearers. Hint such a thing to most of their owners and they would faint dead away...lol. They bought them as pure so pure they must be and they would never own one of those horrible crosses! :nah:

Many Cichlids have questionable ancestry as well. People are under the impression that if the fish looks like a certain type, it must be that type, but there could be anything in its ancestry. Yet in what circle to do you find most purists? Cichlids.

Many of the strains available would not exist if breeders didn't cross fish. The fear is always that the original strains will be lost, but there will always be fish-keepers who keep the strains pure and I think there's room for both. Labelling needs to improve though.

The fact of the matter is, unless you caught it yourself, you can't say for sure that what you're breeding hasn't been tainted. You can improve the odds by purchasing from reputable breeders known for their belief in keeping strains pure, and that's about it.

The way I see it anyway :)

[AquaScaper]

Yup, all sorts of hybrids out there and I suspect most purists have had them and don't even know it. ALL Red and Redwag Swordtails are Platy/Sword Crosses, for example, as are the particular hifins with the long, draping dorsal (not to be confused with a regular Swordtail hifin). That long dorsal is the product of a Variatus x Maculatus Platy which is then crossed with the Swordtail. Stores slap 'Helleri' on everything with a swordtail, but there are many varieties of Swordtails out there that could be mixed into the group or the fish's ancestry.

Platy's also frequently have Swordtail in their veins, as well as being crossed amongst themselves, such as X. variatus & X. maculatus. Those two Platy species are so heavily crossed that most hobbyists don't even know there ARE two different types commonly available.

Molly species are heavily crossed to a point that a pure one is only obtainable privately. The vast majority of Mollies at the commercial level are a mix of all or some of P. sphenops, P. velifera, P. latipinna and Heaven only knows how many other species.

Have you noticed the new colors of Guppies available lately? Even in show quality circles? Look closely and you'll see that many are the exact shade of the colors found in Endler's Livebearers. Hint such a thing to most of their owners and they would faint dead away...lol. They bought them as pure so pure they must be and they would never own one of those horrible crosses! :nah:

Many Cichlids have questionable ancestry as well. People are under the impression that if the fish looks like a certain type, it must be that type, but there could be anything in its ancestry. Yet in what circle to do you find most purists? Cichlids.

Many of the strains available would not exist if breeders didn't cross fish. The fear is always that the original strains will be lost, but there will always be fish-keepers who keep the strains pure and I think there's room for both. Labelling needs to improve though.

The fact of the matter is, unless you caught it yourself, you can't say for sure that what you're breeding hasn't been tainted. You can improve the odds by purchasing from reputable breeders known for their belief in keeping strains pure, and that's about it.

The way I see it anyway :)

Well said! I agree completely and when it comes right down to it, there is no REAL way of knowing if what you're getting is truely pure, not even if you went out and caught it yourself. Chances of purity are probably far greater when it comes to wild species, but I would say that nowadays with global warming and general nature stuff happening everywhere, more and more oddballs are showing up in places where they've never be seen before. To make things more interesting some are actually thriving and populations are growing. What are the chances that these oddballs may be spawning with others from a different species? I'd say pretty good, the quest for survival and reproduction has crossed many borders, The fish world is no exception. I really don't have a defined issue with hybrids, as long as they are clearly labeled as such. I have some Convict Hybrids and I quite like them, will I breed them? No, do I enjoy having them in my collection? Yep I gotta say I really do.:D

[Melody]

I read an article that said polution in the water is causing more hybridization in the wild. Scary stuff in that respect. However, how do people think we ended up with so many closely related species? It is logical to conclude that at least some of them were orignially 'hybrids'. Not all change in creatures is due to evolution. As Mr. Mykiss has seen in his studies, its more common than we realize.

There are some very good arguements for being anti-hybrid and of course, its up to the individual as to what they want in their tanks. Choosing to not have certain fish is one thing, but I just don't see the logic of looking down your nose at them. That sort of thing encourages one response - lying. If you're going to be ridiculed, wouldn't it be very tempting to not tell people they're hybrids if you can get away with it? If people get nasty and judgemental when they see a breeder with hybrids, aren't they in fact discouraging people from labelling them as such? This results in the very thing that many purists argue - people who cross them and sell them as pure.

While I encourage all hobbyists to educate people about the importance of labelling hybrids and keeping strains pure, 'snob' like behaviour does far more harm than good, in my opinion. To me it defeats the very purpose of what they preach, and renders it useless. If they believe themselves to be superior hobbyists for the purist line of thinking then they should spread their knowledge, guiding other hobbyists rather than ridiculing them.

[eimajr]

Although I haven't seen any wild induced cutbows, I think anytime you have 2 similar species/sub-species of anything in close quarters you will end up with mixes. That said I do tend to flip-flop my opinion of cross-breeding depending on the circumstances.

In aquariums I would rather see pure strains of fish, but alot of people givin the chance think they can improve on what god has created. Dog breeders are probably some of the worst as far as messing with species, but horticulturalists aren't far behind.

As far as aquarium fish go, I would think that in a closed enviroment, in trained hands, it's ok. But it never stays that way. So I'm not against hybrids and don't think they should be flushed just because they are mixed, but I wouldn't want to promote the breeding of them.

Be happy with the pets you have, hybrids or not, never turn up your nose at one, as most of us are hybrids ourselves.


PS: my little dog Daisy is the best mutt you could ever ask for;)

[AquaScaper]

Although I haven't seen any wild induced cutbows, I think anytime you have 2 similar species/sub-species of anything in close quarters you will end up with mixes. That said I do tend to flip-flop my opinion of cross-breeding depending on the circumstances.

In aquariums I would rather see pure strains of fish, but alot of people givin the chance think they can improve on what god has created. Dog breeders are probably some of the worst as far as messing with species, but horticulturalists aren't far behind.

As far as aquarium fish go, I would think that in a closed enviroment, in trained hands, it's ok. But it never stays that way. So I'm not against hybrids and don't think they should be flushed just because they are mixed, but I wouldn't want to promote the breeding of them.

Be happy with the pets you have, hybrids or not, never turn up your nose at one, as most of us are hybrids ourselves.


PS: my little dog Daisy is the best mutt you could ever ask for;)

Very well put!

:yes:

[Danzig]

It happens in nature and is a part of evolution.
While some hybrids come out with severe deformities or problems i believe the majority of them do not. If its naturally occuring hybridism then i think its somewhat a natural process. However if its man introduced hybridism it should only be done by professionals if at all. This is just my opinion but i believe that if it isnt possible in nature, theres most likely a good reason for that.

[Melody]

Yeah that petrie dish stuff has a 'playing God' ring to it. I am more opposed to it when it results in a creature that is 'abnormal' to a point where it struggles with eating or whatever. I don't like it when deformaties are exploited either for that matter.

Thanks for your comments :smile: .

[Fugu]

keep in mind that there is no way to prove hybrids if it is 2 attractive fish combined.

[Osprey]

In general, I have no problems with hybridizing. But I am sympathetic to the problems it may create with regards to cichlids. Hybrids become a more difficult issue with cichlids because of temperment. On aquahobby, we had a poster who allowed two different species of Afrcian cichlids to interbreed in her tank. Only one of the fry survived, but he grew up to kill both his parents and all the other tankmates. :wideeyed: She's never been able to find a fish that can hold it's own against that one, and she's tried every trick in the book to reduce aggression. That's scary stuff! People need to be careful with that kind of thing, for the consequences it may have on their other fish.
This is especially important when it comes to breeders; people who stock aggressive cichlid tanks depend on certain species having a certain temperment so that they can be sure the various species in their tanks will get along (well, relatively speaking. They ARE still cichlids, after all!). No-one can predict a hybrid's behavior, so if a hybrid that looks just like a certain species is sold, that can create serious problems in a hobbyist's tank.
That said, if an experienced breeder wants to experiment to try and create a new strain (and several have), I see no problem with that. New species created by hybridization can be very interesting. It just needs to be done with care.

[Melody]

That's a very good point and one I hadn't even thought of, since I don't keep aggressives. Thanks for sharing that point of view.:yes:

[Toirtis]

I have no time whatsoever for any hybrids.

[Toirtis]

, as most of us are hybrids ourselves.

Speak for yourself....as far as I know, all current humans are 100% Homo sapien sapien, although I daily meet at least one person that an argument could be made is 50% Homo neanderthalensis.

[Melody]

Yessiree, a bee is gonna fly up that nose of yours one of these days Christian :laugh: . Luckily you have me around to keep you grounded...

OK well I try anyways ;) .

So elaborate - why don't you like them? Facts? Opinion? Dismissing them is one thing, why is quite another. ::D:

[blainep]

although I daily meet at least one person that an argument could be made is 50% Homo neanderthalensis.


Now there's a statement I can certainly relate to ! :laugh:

For fancy live bearers, hybrids are what gives us all the fancy fins and colours, but also probably contributes to the weak fish that we see in the marketplace today.

Cichlids present another set of problems with aggression and territorial behavior. Along with other problems that probably can't be predicted.

The realistic approach is that, in the aquarium, hybrids happen. How they are dealt with is another story.

[Melody]

Well said, well covered & well summarized! :smile:

[KeepOn]

Well said, well covered & well summarized! :smile:
I have been breeding Cichlids for many years. Myself and friens when we put our species in aquariums, we always make sure that there are not two types in the same family. I would never put two Aulonocara together and etc....

[James]

I really can't say anything againest them, after all I love guppies. If you take the Hybrid word at its real meaning, all most all guppies are hybrid. Even what someone calls a Guppy Pure Strain is really a guppy bread to get the trait we want, and that is a Hybrid is it not?

[PPulcher]

I really can't say anything againest them, after all I love guppies. If you take the Hybrid word at its real meaning, all most all guppies are hybrid. Even what someone calls a Guppy Pure Strain is really a guppy bread to get the trait we want, and that is a Hybrid is it not?

A hybrid is breeding two distinct, but related species together (same genus). This creates something that isn't species a or species b, but a hybrid of the two. Selective breeding or line breeding to develop certain traits is a bit different. If you were to cross in a related species to guppies to introduce some kind of trait, the resulting offspring would be hybrids.

Hybrids do occur in nature, but the fish are often sterile.

I'm not crazy about hybrids myself. Most of my fish are killies, and hybrids are difficult to deal with as it may lead to fertility problems. This is one of the reasons why country and collection codes are assigned to many of them, so different populations that might be drifting genetically (or may be different species already!) are not kept together and allowed to breed.

[ChrissyFishy]

I have never seen such an informative and calm talk about this subject and I have learned a lot from hearing everybody's opinions and information. Thank you!!!!:notworthy:

[Melody]

I really can't say anything againest them, after all I love guppies. If you take the Hybrid word at its real meaning, all most all guppies are hybrid. Even what someone calls a Guppy Pure Strain is really a guppy bread to get the trait we want, and that is a Hybrid is it not?

Literally speaking, hybrids are defined from a biology perspective as "Offspring produced from mating plants or animals from different species, varieties, or genotypes." While we tend to refer to it as a cross of species in the hobby, the term also applies to "the offspring of two parents differing in at least one genetic characteristic (trait)."

So yes, you are correct in the literal biological sense. If it involves the combination of different genes, it results in a hybrid. A wild-type Guppy x Red Delta Guppy could be labelled as a hybrid.

[Melody]

I have never seen such an informative and calm talk about this subject and I have learned a lot from hearing everybody's opinions and information. Thank you!!!!:notworthy:

Me too!

[Katalyst]

For me it depends on what the hybrid crosses are...Endlers and guppies produce some really beautiful hybrids.

Shrimp, not so much.

I think I'm a bit of a purist I keep purple snails with other purple snails, all shrimp are kept seperately and even have my oranda's, ranchu's, ryunkins seperated now that it is spring (breeding season). Perhaps its the control freak in me, I like to know exactly what I'm getting.

Agression is another issue, but because I do not keep any agressive types of fish its not a problem for me.

[GaryofMontreal]

Here comes a late arriving "purist".

I don't have one single known hybrid in any tank, and would never knowingly keep one. If I have a killie that could be a cross between similar species (from a jumping adult, etc) this fish is gone. Why? For me, the hobby is learning about nature - not about how once again humans can manipulate nature. It's a limiting position - if I don't get the sense a breeder would never cross a species I want to keep, I don't buy their fish.

The best dogs are mongrels, but they are all dogs. There is no species cross involved. A two or three species hybrid form blue dempsie or a gold parrot isn't worth watching, for me. They are like balloon mollies or rams, or long-finned anythings - animals twisted for human tastes. As long as they are labelled, people are welcome to them, but I hate to see them in the hobby without acknowledgement they are the real thing. To me, new and improved is for products, not creatures.

If you've ever watched a short-finned wild Betta dart the length of a 3 foot tank to nail a fruit fly on the surface, then you have seen a thing of elegance moving as its long evolutionary history has shaped it for. Then watch a show Betta burdened by the drag and weight of useless, unnatural but pretty fins lumber gasping after the same fly - it's a sad sight.

I recognize the skill and patience of fancy breeders. I've sat and discussed "how to" with dedicated, prize winning guppy breeders, but I've never bought their fish.

[Melody]

A strong fish can carry elaborate fiinnage just fine and the spoiled bratts don't have to hunt or escape predators, so I have no problem with that part. Irresponsible breeding practices make for weak fish who can't cope with the very traits they've been inbred for - that's sad. I love elaborate finnage - to me they are different fish entirely, even though that's not the case. But then again, they are different fish - they are captive bred. Everything bred in captivity for any length of time is genetically different than it would be in the wild due to lack of diversity and the opportunity to choose their mates from a pool of hundreds or thousands in their vacinity. I don't believe in breeding a trait into something that will make it suffer, like the Balloon Belly Mollies. Otherwise, keeping and breeding fish in captivity at all is self-serving. With the exception of species maintenance, we don't keep fish for the fish, we keep them for us. We don't inbreed them in captivity to benefit the species, we do it for us. One wrong being more wrong than the other is the debate.:yes:

This thread has been such a diverse selection of views and I have enjoyed seeing it all from various perspectives. I've also learned a lot. Thanks for your input everyone :smile: .

[GaryofMontreal]

In a roundabout way, agree with Melody. Once we catch a fish, it's caught. I take pleasure in wild types, others take pleasure in cultivated forms. I just wanted to show my 'purists' point of view. I'll admire your half black lace angels or german rams, and go back to my Xingu angels or Venezuelan rams. It's all taste. According the high school kids I teach, I'm no expert on that when it comes to fashion. So who's to say if I'm better with fish?

[Melody]

LOL Teaching High School has to be entertaining!

Thanks for sharing your views, the more the better. I think there are snobby purists who give you normal purists a bad name. I guess it's that they don't really feel how they feel for a pure reason at all, it's just a way to feel superior or more advanced. It is too funny when a snobby purist finds out that the Platy, Swordtail or Molly that they have/had, is/was a good ol' mutt. A normal purist just feels enlightened, if a bit betrayed.

That's one of the reasons that I wanted a civil thread about the topic from all perspectives. Usually when this comes up the tempers flare because there's scathing remarks from purists and that is counter productive. If a person is a purist for the right reasons (which would be any reason stemming from sincere concern), then they would want to share their views with the masses so others could make an informed decision of their own. If people ban them from clubs or go on the attack, the only thing accomplished is people will hide their mutts and that will do far more harm than good. They also won't ask questions for fear of ridicule, such as "I have some Endlers in with my Guppies and someone wants to buy some fry. I don't know if the babies I am selling are crosses or not but they look like Endlers, how can I tell for sure?" If that person already knows people frown upon keeping the fish together, will they post that question or will they just sell the fry as Endler's so they don't get attacked?

There will always be mutts in this hobby and encouraging responsible practices through education will help ensure that the purists' nightmare doesn't come true. Being a purist or not is a personal choice. Being responsible is an obligation to your fellow hobbyists regardless of what that choice is. :smile:

[corrosionjerry]

Yup, all sorts of hybrids out there and I suspect most purists have had them and don't even know it. ALL Red and Redwag Swordtails are Platy/Sword Crosses, for example, as are the particular hifins with the long, draping dorsal (not to be confused with a regular Swordtail hifin). That long dorsal is the product of a Variatus x Maculatus Platy which is then crossed with the Swordtail. Stores slap 'Helleri' on everything with a swordtail, but there are many varieties of Swordtails out there that could be mixed into the group or the fish's ancestry.

Platy's also frequently have Swordtail in their veins, as well as being crossed amongst themselves, such as X. variatus & X. maculatus. Those two Platy species are so heavily crossed that most hobbyists don't even know there ARE two different types commonly available.

Molly species are heavily crossed to a point that a pure one is only obtainable privately. The vast majority of Mollies at the commercial level are a mix of all or some of P. sphenops, P. velifera, P. latipinna and Heaven only knows how many other species.

Have you noticed the new colors of Guppies available lately? Even in show quality circles? Look closely and you'll see that many are the exact shade of the colors found in Endler's Livebearers. Hint such a thing to most of their owners and they would faint dead away...lol. They bought them as pure so pure they must be and they would never own one of those horrible crosses! :nah:

Many Cichlids have questionable ancestry as well. People are under the impression that if the fish looks like a certain type, it must be that type, but there could be anything in its ancestry. Yet in what circle to do you find most purists? Cichlids.

Many of the strains available would not exist if breeders didn't cross fish. The fear is always that the original strains will be lost, but there will always be fish-keepers who keep the strains pure and I think there's room for both. Labelling needs to improve though.

The fact of the matter is, unless you caught it yourself, you can't say for sure that what you're breeding hasn't been tainted. You can improve the odds by purchasing from reputable breeders known for their belief in keeping strains pure, and that's about it.

The way I see it anyway :)


I couldnt of said it better...... I agree with you entirely

[GaryofMontreal]

I actually think there are only a few corners of the hobby where the sad state of affairs Melody describes are true. The most extreme part of the hobby for species manipulation is with livebearers. It is hard to find a natural livebearing fish in the pet stores. When I was a kid, you could still find green swords and wild type platys in stores, but as the fish farming industry has grown, hybrids have become the norm. I've been looking for Xiphophorus helleri for years, and all I ever see are crosses.

Rainbowfish are a total mess from bad breeding techniques. These are fish that have formed into species through geographic isolation, but can cross if they ever meet, much like many livebearers. People catch them and make them meet - something that could never happen in nature. When they meet, tens of thousands of years of diversity get thrown into the soup and lost - and all we get are good corporate style rainbows in the stores.

With cichlids, the crossing isn't always so easy. Malawis, taken from their isolated habitats and thrown together will hybridize easily enough. Some other cichlids will do the same. Generally though, all the collecting literature and data points to hybridization in normally functioning habitats as being extraordinarily rare.

Right now, in Singapore, the petri dish and test tube are playing a role in the cichlids we get, and a lot of work is going into designer cichlids. If we buy them, that work will continue. Profits are profits.

If I had room, I'd have a tank of 'marigold' swords. I love them. I'd never call them 'helleri' - they are no species, really. As a hobbyist with some knowledge and experience, I would be responsible (according to my view of responsibility). They'd never be in contact with any fish they could even remotely cross with, and if they crossed, I'd make sure I had a nice wild-derived cichlid to feed the young to.

I know breeders will take two or three molly species and cross them for traits. I know no one sells their fish with a pedigree. P. velifera is beautiful. P schenops is beautiful. P latipinna is beautiful. Lasagna, tandoori chicken, whiskey (single malt!) and gingerbread cake are also great things, but if I can only get them mashed up in the same bowl, I'm walking away.

[Melody]

I'd have to disagree on the Cichlids - there's a whole lot of mutts in stores and I own one. 'Zap' is a wonderful fish but she's definitly not the pure Lab she was sold to me as. Had I known I wouldn't have fed the practice through purchase, but that's the problem - many hobbyists just don't know. I'm not into Cichlids, she was for my Son, so I had never heard of hybrid issues with them. If we can get that information out there in a restrained and civil manner, everyone wins. I did my research to make sure I could care for the fish, but I didn't find anything about hybrids.

Livebearers, on the other hand, are openly manipulated. Do any research at all and you'll find information about that. The finer points of how to spot hybrids needs work there and across all species, but otherwise it is practically common knowledge. Many species will also resist hybridization and opt for a mate from their own species if they have that choice. Hybridization in nature is not common unless something like pollution interferes.

I also learned right at the beginning that I should not label a species unless I am reasonably certain of it's heritage, such as the P. velifera you see in pictures around the forum and the fish I brought in with them. Their breeder wouldn't even bag them together for shipping. He openly outcrosses his domestic strains to wild-types to improve the the line, but he keeps his pure populations pristine. The information he supplies about his domestic strains clearly states that they are not pure strains. The same goes for his Rainbows - he has some hybrids and they're marked as such, and he has pure populations. He is both a purist and a non-purist, technically. For you to own Marigolds and breed them responsibly makes you no less a purist and many purists won't accept that.

The hobby has reached a place where as you say, profit rules. Space is always an issue in mass breeding facilities and it is much easier for them to breed everything in the same vat and name whatever pops out as the species it most resembles. Then there's the tanks of 'Mixed African Cichlids' that you see in many stores. Same goes for Rainbows.

The fact of the matter is, unless you catch it yourself you don't know that it's pure with 100% certainty and such is the nature of this hobby beast. We (including stores) can be at least reasonably sure if we purchase from responsible breeders and that's about the best we can do. Encouraging people to be honest about their fish without vocalized judgement should also be the responsibility of all hobbyists, purist or otherwise. 'Zap' is now the spokesfish for mutt Cichlids...lol... and I daresay she has enlightened more than a few hobbyists and alerted them to the issue.::D:

[GaryofMontreal]

Well Melody, even when we try to 'fight', we end up agreeing! That's no fun. :wink: In my last message, I said Malawis hybridize easily, and your Zap is a Malawi. Lake fish have mechanisms to stop natural hybridization in the wild, but they don't work in fishtanks. I have some Lake Bermin cichlids here. They sort out by depth - the ones below 5 meters don't enter the territories of the ones that live below 10 meters, etc. My tank is 18 inches deep... so much for that mechanism.
Malawis are examples of recent formation of species, and nothing is set. Mbuna, the popular species, live on underwater "islands" surrounded by open areas. The predators out there ensure a lack of mixing from "island" to "island", as little mbunas travelling from the safety of the rock pile they come from usually don't get too far.
We have an enormous ability to mess up nature as it comes to us, and as we live in it. We can also have fun with fancy fish breeding. We'll label our fish and not label our fishkeeping friends and just keep enjoying this hobby.
Except I just cut my finger making a new filter and have to keep it out of tank water. I no longer have an excuse not to correct grade 11 compositions:twitcy:

[Melody]

LOL Fighting is for people who lack the intelligence to do otherwise, which explains why we can't pull it off :wink: . Now a good debate, that's stimulating stuff when it's done right.

I hadn't thought of the territorial aspect in protecting species purity - makes perfect sense though. Cichlids are Cichlids to me and there's enough hybrids amongst the Africans to make up for the lack thereof in the others, unfortunately. The vast majority of Livebearer species aren't hybridized either, we're just used to hearing about the same three groups common on the market.

Take care of that finger!

[ChrissyFishy]

LOL Fighting is for people who lack the intelligence to do otherwise, which explains why we can't pull it off :wink: . Now a good debate, that's stimulating stuff when it's done right.

I hadn't thought of the territorial aspect in protecting species purity - makes perfect sense though. Cichlids are Cichlids to me and there's enough hybrids amongst the Africans to make up for the lack thereof in the others, unfortunately. The vast majority of Livebearer species aren't hybridized either, we're just used to hearing about the same three groups common on the market.

Take care of that finger!

Now I know why this forum is so much better than the other ones!!!! You are to smart to fight!!!!:laugh:

[Melody]

:laugh: I'm sure that's it!

[pdl1251]

Cats, dogs or fish - I really don't like animals being hybridized into bizarre and dysfunctional forms for the sole purpose of making money with no regard for the animals' quality of life.

Breeding fish that are nearly unable to perform basic functions (eating, swimming e.g.) due to being deliberately deformed is, IMO, unethical.

I would never buy any "Balloon" fish, or any of those "Parrot" cichlids who are not only grossly deformed, but usually dyed as well.:cry:

[Melody]

Definitly exploiting deformaties or deliberatly causing suffering for any reason isn't acceptable. I think that's one aspect that everyone agrees on. :yes: