Geophagus I.D.?

[amaruq]

I bought 2 geophagus's some time ago.

I am convinced the biggest one is NOT a Norte..but have no idea what species of Geophagus she is (I don't know she's a she).

In one picture you can see the difference in the 2(it's the first picture) ...her dorsal fin is not as spiky as the Norte...the smaller one (I like to think he's a he) darkens up his bars and doesn't have the coloration(yellow and reds) compared to her. I even find facial and body wise they are not the same. She has a softer slope to the forehead.

[GaryofMontreal]

Your fish aren't Geophagus, but Gymnogeophagus. "Norte" isn't a helpful trade name. Usually, an undescribed species has a place name attached - a river, a village, etc. "Norte" couldn't be more vague. There are a lot of Gymnogeophagus in the "North" of Argentina.
That being said, I don't see two clear species. I have Gymnogeophagus breeders from what seems to be the same complex, if not the same species here, and I just took a good close look at my pair. That's what they look like. I've never seen the colours in picture two, but lighting, camera etc could do that. One and three look familiar.
I have them in a cool period now, and they won't breed again til they warm up. I know his sounds bad, but I THINK the rounded head profile is the male. They were smaller when they were spawning and there wasn't much difference. As they've grown since, the forehead on one fish has rounded. It's not a huge difference, but it is there. The juvies all have sharp heads, so it's likely the rounded head is a later bloomng male characteristic. The rounded fish is also bigger.

[amaruq]

Thanks very much :)

I was wondering with the size difference if it could be an age difference. Did you get that???? lol!:wideeyed:

I am seeing some similarities in the 2...I got another Norte and he is smaller. The coloring he/she is showing already is amazing!!!!!!! Has a blood red of the dorsal fin :) WICKED!

[GaryofMontreal]

Wow. I have two different populations from two imports, one with a touch of light red over blue, and the other much redder, but not as strongly as you describe. It sounds like we have fish with a lot of geographic variety, and a lot of colour. And, it sounds like you got the better looking ones, not that mine aren't nice:wink: .

[Melody]

It's interesting how the colour variance potential differs amongst species. Some can produce a vast array of colours, others have a limit to how much their colours or markings vary and the rest have no noticable differences at all. Location can certainly make a difference to a point that some are believed to be different species until someone figures it out. Then there's 'throws' that have some special colour or finnage trait and before you know it there's a domestic strain.

One problem that can can occur in Cichlids (and other species) is hybrids being sold under the name of the species they look the most like, or in tanks of 'Mixed Cichlids'. My Son's Cichlid is a mutt but she was labelled as an Electric Yellow Cichlid. We had no idea until I was reading about it one day and started investigating. She has nowhere near the yellow coverage she's supposed to have and she's larger than the EY's are. We have no intention of breeding her - she's a pet so we don't care on that level. I would have been very upset to find out she was a hybrid if I'd bred her though.

[GaryofMontreal]

Where it gets complicated is geographic isolation. All the Gymnogeopahgus we're discussing come from the wild, and the intensity of colour goes with different localities. I have one described species, Gymnogeophagus che. It's the one with reddish coloration in its fins. Amaruq has another, very red one , and I have a third - same body and fin shape, same size, but blue where che is pink/violet. Eyeballing them, I would say mine were colour morphs of the same species.
They don't think so. They fight among themselves, but not between morphs. No courting outside the colour form, and no same species behavior. Watching them since this thread started, and thinking back on what I've seen, I'm thinking they're two different species. They don't even swim together much.
I just read a paper on Apistogramma caeti - three populations from three different rivers. The differences are subtle in their looks, but they don't crossbreed unless they have no possible mate from their own colour form. And, the DNA work has shown each to be a separate species, completely throwing the fact they look more or less alike out the window.
This matters, because as a killie guy, I can say mules have bedevilled our attempt to maintain several species. They may look identical, but if they are from different geographic locations, they may have been apart long enough to start the move across whatever the dividing lines are between species. Cross them, and the offspring can lose fertility.
So wherever 'norte' is, it shouldn't ever be crossed with my strain, or my identified species. They may be cousins, they may be varieties of the same species, but it's better safe than sorry. As a general principle, we don't want to add to the mess Melody has described.

[Melody]

It's funny how people always expect something to be one or the other. We don't often stop to think that we may be witnessing an evolutionary process. We will see many changes in wildlife as our climate changes as well.... or our great grandchildren will anyway.

[ChrissyFishy]

I don't know anything about those but I am glad you posted because the thread was interesting!!!! They are very nice fish :yes: