Wiggling, lethargic, depressed, drunken livebearers

[PintoHawk]

I am afraid to post about this, to be honest, because I have a feeling it's something I am doing wrong and I feel like a fool.

I have 3 tanks, two 20g and one 10g. In the 10g I have one lonely Blue Platy female, waiting to drop. She seems totally fine: normal behaviour, eating regular, swimming nicely, hiding alot in the plants, acting like she will drop those babies any time. I don't think anything is wrong with her.

BUT, in both of my 20gs the fish are all acting crazy.

One 20g is a tall rectangle type with 3 Mollies & 1 Pleco.
The other 20g is long and split down the middle. One half has 3 Platys, 1m 2f, the other half has 3 Mollies, same gender ratio.

Pleco is normal as far as I can tell.

But all Mollies with the exception of 2 (one in each tank) are doing that wiggly thing, hovering near the heater with their head up and tail down, or resting on the gravel hardly moving, or swimming vertical, all wobbly and drunken-like. They look horrible. This started about 2 days ago.

My ammonia tests are perfect, have been for weeks. I picked up a pH test kit today and it reads 7.5 on all 3 tanks, which I hear is perfect for these fish.

I did W/C yesterday on the 20 gallon tanks, hoping that would help whatever is wrong with them but they are worse today. I feed a small amount AM & PM, either flakes, tubifex, bloodworms (no allergies in my household, yay), or my home-made food which contains all of the above plus veggies & baby vitamins & garlic. I also drop algae wafers in for Mr. Pleco almost every night.

This afternoon I vaccuumed gravel and did a W/C on the tall 20g ONLY to see if that will help conditions or if it even made a difference. I added 2TBS of aquarium salt to the 20gallon tanks and 1TBS to the 10g.

Tonight, hours later, no change whatsoever. Everything exactly the same as I have described.

So, what do you think? What does it mean when they act like I have described? Does it sound like I am doing anything wrong? I got some advice from the LFS lady who was very nice, as well as from Molly & Platy-specific websites.

I don't want them to suffer, I really don't want them to die. I will cry my eyes out. :( (I named them all already, I am like that). Thank you VERY much for any help you can give me,
Anna

[CACAdmin]

It's difficult to say what it might be. It sounds like shimmying which as far as I know usually indicates they dealing with stress, poor water quality or are fighting off something (which could be just about anything including internal or external parasites).

A few questions if you don't mind... I'd really like to try to help get to the root of the problem:

what are your nitrite and nitrate levels?
what is the temperature of your tanks?
is it possible they upped the amount of chlorine in your water supply? are you using a dechlorinatorwhich removew both chlorine and chloramines?
are there any signs of illness (white film or spots, or anything?)

[jusdeb]

Shimmying can be a sign of Columnaris. Maybe do a google and see if this helps you at all. Good Luck

[amaruq]

((((pinto))))

I cried at everyone of the fish that died for me....beleive me it was a lot! Emotionally I'm still trying to recover.

I wonder if your Temp is too low? Or do you have and airstone going? (airation)?

[PintoHawk]

... shimmying - the LFS lady said the same thing, she said Mollies are 'prone' to shimmying. She said adding salt is my best bet.

... what are your nitrite and nitrate levels?
I have a pH test kit which says 7.5 and an ammonia test kit which says 0ppm. I only got the pH kit yesterday but the ammonia kit I have been using for weeks, I watched the spike and it hasn't occured since, that was a couple weeks ago. The ammonia kit says it checks nitrate & nitrate.

... what is the temperature of your tanks?
79 F steady

... is it possible they upped the amount of chlorine in your water supply? are you using a dechlorinatorwhich removew both chlorine and chloramines?
I use Aqua-Plus, I did notice a stronger chlorine smell a couple months ago but I have only had the fish about 6 weeks, and I always treat my 'aged overnight' water with Aqua-Plus.

... are there any signs of illness (white film or spots, or anything?)
no, not at all that I can see

... Columnaris - the symptoms don't match, this disease shows physical symptoms like spots and rot and such, my fish LOOK normal they are just acting strange, swimming funny, resting on rocks, etc.

... airstone/aeration - I don't have anything like this, should I get something? I have never had anything like this for any of the tanks I have ever owned, I have had Platys, Guppies, Balas, Cichlids, various Tetras, catfish, etc. (not all at once).

Hopefully that answers the questions. Thanks everyone!

[CACAdmin]

You temps & pH are fine. I'm not familiar with all the different test kits out there but If your ammonia test kit tests for nitrites and nitrates too, it should give you seperate readings for each of those as well.. You could easily have 0 ppm ammonia and yet have high nitrtites &/or nitrates. What are your readings on those?

How often and how big a water change are you doing?

Another thing, do you have both plants and open swimming area in the tanks for the mollies? (they require both or can be stressed)... sorry for asking. I seem to recall that you do, but can't recall for sure.

As for feeding, are the fish in question still eating? You could cut back on the feedings for a bit as this will also increase the waste produced (thus increasing the nitrites and nitrates).

I don't like using meds and it's not great just throwing meds at something when you don't know what it is. But, that said, you could try something gentle like Melafix. (it will not however have any impact at all if the cause is parasites).

Another thought... have you added anything new to both tanks recently? (rocks, wood, decorations, etc.?)

[PintoHawk]

nitrites and nitrates - I don't know... the box says it tests for them, but all it gives me is: one test tube, fill to the 5ml line, drop in 8 drops of #1 and 8 drops of #2, shake for 5 seconds, wait five minutes and see what color it is. It was a medium green, I think the reading was 1ppm, a few weeks ago, but it has been bright yellow, 0ppm, every since then, steady, no change at all. I figured that was my "spike" then, it was the right time for how long the tank had been set up and running. I really do believe the tank has cycled.
So, do I need to find another kit that tests specifically for nitrites and nitrates?

W/C - I was doing maybe 15% - 20% every day when it was having bad test readings and that helped, and now it's every day again because I am trying to fix whatever is wrong with the fish. I really have no idea what designates "frequent w/c". What do you reccommend? I can do whatever you guys think will work, I only work p/t so I have time to do them every day or ten times a day if that's what it takes, although my water bill is going to put me in debt, LOL

Yes, swimming areas and plants and rocks and such, but I think it's a good mix. More swimming less stuff? Or half and half? which is best for Mollies?

Yes, they eat anything I put in there but they do seem drawn more to my home-made food and the flakes rather than the frozen bloodworms or the freeze-dried tubifex.

Melafix is for stress and minor wounds, right? I could try that.

Only thing NEW I have added in the past week or so has been plastic plants, like normal fake aquarium plants...I always rinse everything off really good before putting in the tanks, too.

I have cats... they like to sit on the tanks and watch the fish... maybe their litter (clay clumping) got in the tanks and is poisoning the fish or something? I just don't know what to think. Maybe I just got really unhealthy fish to begin with.

One of my fish is from Tropical Fish Imports in Lethbridge, and she is the healthiest/most robust of them all, well, besides the Blue Platy, who is also fine but she is in the 20 gallon by herself.

Hopefully I answered all the questions. I appreciate all this feedback alot. Thank you!

[James]

It sounds like you are using the API kit for ammonia, which should show a weak yellow for 0ppm, which is good. I don't think any test kit will measure ammonia and anything else, as the chemicals react with eachother. The next thing you might want to check is Nitrite, if you had a small spike in ammonia then you will also get a spike in Nitrite following it most times.

Nitrate you can test for, as I do, but really if you do a w/c weekly then you should not really have much of a build up with it.

Water changes, I do a 50% water change on 2 of my tanks weekly, the Oscar tank gets a 50% water change one day a week and another 10 to 20% change during the week. The second water change on the Oscar tank is really only because they are so dirty, ie: little piles much like a very large dog....

I would keep up with w/c, by doing 20 to 30% each day for awhile, if it is Nitrite that will help tell it lvls out. Also would keep the lights off, and feed only once everyother day for awhile. Sounds like your bio load is fine, but if you overfeed (which I am prone to) you can drive up the phosphate lvl, again w/c's will help that.

Hope any of this helps you, more I am just throwing ideas out.

[Melody]

I'm glad you posted here - didn't I tell you that people would be helpful and not judge? :smile: We've all been there.

As I mentioned in PM, I think you're seeing the Nitrite part of the cycle and it's a deadly one. To answer you last PM, 'frequent waterchanges' in this case would mean daily and maybe even twice daily until the Nitrites settle down. If you get them through the next week and it is indeed the cycle, they should be ok. You may lose some to damage already done but you don't have to lose them all if you keep the waterchanges up and add some aquarium salt as you have done. The salt you have is fine for this purpose so don't fret about that, it's just not the right salt for a brackish tank.

Shimmies mean the fish is stressed - it's a symptom, not a condition. The store treatments would lead you to believe otherwise though. :rolleyes: There's always a chance of an illness of course, but if they're showing no other signs I'd treat it as Nitrite poisoning.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/nitritepoison.htm

[PintoHawk]

Thank you James, for your suggestions!
Thanks for the link, Melody, that helped explain things much better.

*sigh* and I thought the worst was over...

EDIT to add: Hey what about when I want to add my new plants next week? I have Java Moss and Hornwort coming... will they help or make things worse?

[Melody]

Plants help, but if they're from a store it would be a good idea to quarantine them for at least a few days. Ich cysts & bacteria can be on them. You can disinfect them but I don't think hornwort would take that well.

[CACAdmin]

Yes, swimming areas and plants and rocks and such, but I think it's a good mix. More swimming less stuff? Or half and half? which is best for Mollies?
It doesn't have to be anything precise. All that matters really is that you have both. Plants make them feel secure and give females a place to hide from over-eager males. They do need some open swimming area, too. (Sailfins tend to need more.)

Melafix is for stress and minor wounds, right? I could try that.

That's right but I think Melody is right in that it's most likely nitrites so I'd just do as she suggested with waterchanges and salt.

Hey what about when I want to add my new plants next week? I have Java Moss and Hornwort coming... will they help or make things worse?
Healthy plants don't add to the problem. (Only decaying plant leaves add to the waste in the tank). Both Moss and Hornwortshould be fine as they aren't the type of plant which needs to take root. And they will feed on nitrates in the tank (bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates which the plants can use).

Hope things improve soon for you.

Edit: Thanks Melody for the reminder about quarantining the plants for several days. And you're right Hornwort doesn't take kindly to disinfecting... I learned that the hard way.:rolleyes:

[PintoHawk]

Thanks you guys. :)

How do I quarantine my plants? In a bucket of aquarium water?

[CACAdmin]

Just a bucket of ordinary water will do.

[PintoHawk]

Some of the fish are still wiggly/wobbly, some have improved. I have been doing water changes, added salt ... I am also treating for ICH now, maybe that was the problem? I had another one die yesterday, my Blue Platy girl. :(

[Melody]

The Ich is a secondary infection - Ick attacks stressed fish. Glad to hear that they're improving overall!

[PintoHawk]

UPDATES:

My little sailfin Molly dude was really bad last week; he bent like an "s" and gimped up, couldn't hardly swim, he looked horrible, I was expecting him to die. I assumed it was from the cycling and the ich together, he was suffering (*cries*). Today he is almost back to normal, I think he will make it, and I am quite surprised.
Tough little dude.

A few of my fish still shows some symtoms of ich -the actions: rubbing against plants and decorations- but nobody has ever shown the white spots, not one, so I am wondering if they didn't have ich and it was because of the water, the nitrite/nitrate. I have been doing almost daily w/c and everything looks alot better now.

Hoping for the best!

[Melody]

Could have been another parasite or as you say, the environment. Glad to hear things are going better!

[tiff]

Just a thought, is your spring run off over??
Many areas put different chemicals in there water during the spring that can and will stress the fish. I've lost one of my fish since spring run off, and I've read on from one of the other canadain sites that this can be a normal occurence.
Try adding a extra dose of Prime and maybe even some charcoal into your filter to catch some of the extra heavy metals and chemicals that may be in your water.

It's just a thought. I'm not sure of it'll help. :eek:

[PintoHawk]

Thanks Tiff, that's actually a clever thought and I might as well see if it helps. :)
I never even thought of that....

[Melody]

Ontario is big on that and I think the Island here in BC is too. Good thinking - I'd forgotten about that.