Cichlid Intelligence

[Melody]

By now y'all have heard about Zap, the Electric Yellow Cichlid mutt. She's been my Son's pet for several years now. Recently I got rid of some old computer towers on my desk (shove one over, hook up the new one). Now I can see Zap's tank from here and she often watches me as her cave is on that side.

My Son has gone from not even having to bend over to look into her tank, to towering several feet above it (and me!), yet Zap still knows him and responds to him (and only him). I marvel at her eyesight - she can see him from way across the room. She watches him and if he looks at her she starts her dance & goes to the surface looking for a Krill treat.

It was from this angle that I realized that she had outgrown her cave. She spent a lot of time behind it in the corner it's in, and had to turn sideways to enter it. She's happy with the new one I just put in and has been checking every bit of it out. She goes inside, rearranges a few bits of gravel, noses up into every corner, does full 360's upright, then again in the natural swimming position. Then she comes outside and swims over every inch, even slowly and lightly rubbing herself along the side. It's been in there an hour and she's still at it.

Cichlids are beautiful and if I was into breeding them and they were community oriented, I'm sure I'd have more than one. What has always struck me most about them though, is their intelligence. You can see it in their eyes. The look is almost human.

Am I just accustomed to less responsive fish or is Cichlid intelligence a documented thing? I've read an article or two about their intelligent social behaiours & such but that's about it. One of these days I'd like to study their behaviour more.

In the meantime I'll just hang out with Zap here, the resident princess fish who rules a 20G alone with some lowly snails. She just knocked the blue one unceremoniously off of the top of her new cave :laugh: ... wish I'd have caught that in a picture. I see she has gold Marisas guarding the entrance in a Sphinx-like fashion. :rolleyes:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-Zap.jpg

[CACAdmin]

I know very little about cichlids but they are beautiful fish. If I had the room, I'd have a cichlid tank. Zap looks like she's quite happy with her new cave but keeping a wary eye on her competition. (She probably views you as competition for your son's attention. :wink: )

[blainep]

I've read a few articles about studies on cichlid intelligence, seems overall they are pretty smart fish.

I agree with Jay, eying up the competition ! :laugh:

[James]

Although I enjoy all the fish I have, my two Oscar's always get extra care. Watching them, you can see different moods they have. It always supprises people if they are here when one or the other decides to pout, and lays on its side on the bottom without hardly moving, although a Krill or even a worm most times will end that. If it didn't take 50 to 60 gallons per fish, I would have more of them.

Although Zap is from a different region, I have talked to people who keep African Childs and they seem to have all the same moods as South American Childs do when they are kept in small groups.

I have sometimes wondered if that is one thing about Oscar's becoming such pets, in that they are almost always kept single or just in pairs by most people.

[amaruq]

I think they are intelligent! Sometimes I am amazed at the stuff they do.

I have one Geophagus I call Beauty (cause they are) That always comes to the tank and shows off for me. They look at me and generally act crazy.

My Kribs also are very smart. Although the female PMS's way too much!!!!!!

[Melody]

It's too bad that there isn't more money in the study of intelligence in fish. I think it is arrogant of humans to decide that we are superior in intelligence based only on comparisons to how we think and do things. I firmly believe that there are extremely intelligent fish species but because humans don't understand their variety of intelligence, we dismiss it as nonexistent.

People are inclined to humanize their pets and fish are no exception, but we do observe and interact with our fish and are in a better position to judge their intelligence. Someone watching them in a lab with a list of criteria that in their mind indicates intelligence will never see the potential we see.

I am glad they live a reasonable lifespan because it won't only be the kid who misses her. I have had so many fish pass through here that I have become somewhat immune to the losses, other than being sensitive to their suffering. There are always a few who wiggle their way into my heart though, and without personality that wouldn't be possible.

Interesting theory on it being more common for us to be attached to one or two fish in a tank, James. It makes sense that we'd view them more as individuals and get to know them as such. I hadn't thought of that. They still need a personality to hook me, but if I had a school of 'Zaps' I'm sure I wouldn't be as attached to any one of them.

[GaryofMontreal]

It's really hard to measure intelligence. There have been studies of cichlids that show them to have memory, and some problem solving ability. They can sort their own fry from other pairs' young, even though they usually just adopt when mix ups happen. This skill seems to revolve around chemical receptors.
As well, the recognition of individual humans is possibly visual, but may also involve recognition of the vibration patterns of their footsteps through the lateral line.
Species that practice territorial defence and complex broodcare seem more intelligent than those who dump and run with their babies - predators are also reported to have more developed 'owner recognition'. This would put Zap down at the bottom of the heap for cichlid intelligence, as a herbivorous Lake cichlid with no broodcare after the babies are released.

It's all conjecture, but I have had Central American, South American and African river cichlid individuals that seemed as smart to me as some dogs. Granted, my nephew's golden retriever inbreds would get their noses stuck to the glass as they paddled forward if they were fish, but an average dog with a smart cichlid is an interesting comparison. I think a lot of fish have a lot of small mammals beat. But then again, how do we measure the intelligence of small mammals either?

[Melody]

Zap resents that remark and would like to say that she is not just another pretty face. Let's see YOUR cichlids talk like that! :chatterbox:

Vibrating footsteps are pretty much out for this one I think, considering her kid's vibrations have changed daily since day one. Mine only change after holidays involving chocolate.:rolleyes:

[GaryofMontreal]

Melody - please, no insult intended for Zap, who may well be smarter than a lot of our prominent politicians! What I should have said is that if you are intrigued by Zap's responses, you should see her relatives. An average Malawi keeps her babies in her mouth, releases them, and then goes back to grazing on algae mats. Her challenge is avoiding larvae and egg predators until she can spit out her young and ignore them.

A pelvicachromis guards her eggs, then rears her fry for weeks. She leads them to food sources, and constantly monitors oxygen levels in the places she takes them, so she can move them if they are low. She has a repertoire of signals for her fry, and for her mate, who unlike a Malawi Haplochromine actually helps and participates in broodcare. She has to work with 50 fry, a male, currents, physical and chemical environment, food sources and predators. The evolutionary pressure is on for increased intelligence, because of all these tasks. Breeders also feel that if they separate mother and young too early, broodcare suffers in later generations - which points to learning being involved. It's a delight to watch.

[Allie]

We sold some fish last year, African cichlids from lake Malawi....we we doing a tank change up. We got a few fish back from some of the people we sold them to recently. I swear they recognize me. They will come up to me like a Betta will, but not the ones we bought 6 months ago. Weird. Fish are much more smarter than they've been given credit for. I swear my Betta think they are cats. :yes: They are so much like them.

[hp10BII]

I have a few cichlids for that very reason, intelligence, personality and for some, their looks can grow on you over time. For me, it's their mating & breeding rituals that interests me. Within the group, you can have mouth brooders, harem and colony spawners, rock, cave or shell dwellers etc., whatever nature threw at them and the end result is what they need to do to adapt and survive.

[Melody]

Melody - please, no insult intended for Zap, who may well be smarter than a lot of our prominent politicians! What I should have said is that if you are intrigued by Zap's responses, you should see her relatives. An average Malawi keeps her babies in her mouth, releases them, and then goes back to grazing on algae mats. Her challenge is avoiding larvae and egg predators until she can spit out her young and ignore them.

A pelvicachromis guards her eggs, then rears her fry for weeks. She leads them to food sources, and constantly monitors oxygen levels in the places she takes them, so she can move them if they are low. She has a repertoire of signals for her fry, and for her mate, who unlike a Malawi Haplochromine actually helps and participates in broodcare. She has to work with 50 fry, a male, currents, physical and chemical environment, food sources and predators. The evolutionary pressure is on for increased intelligence, because of all these tasks. Breeders also feel that if they separate mother and young too early, broodcare suffers in later generations - which points to learning being involved. It's a delight to watch.

I am sure they're fascinating and I wasn't in the least insulted. Zap is still sulking but you know how females are :rolleyes: . She just sniffs snobbily and says "Boys are stupid. Throw rocks at them."

I can't believe yours don't talk to you, but other than that they seem very interesting indeed. ::D:

[Melody]

We sold some fish last year, African cichlids from lake Malawi....we we doing a tank change up. We got a few fish back from some of the people we sold them to recently. I swear they recognize me. They will come up to me like a Betta will, but not the ones we bought 6 months ago. Weird. Fish are much more smarter than they've been given credit for. I swear my Betta think they are cats. :yes: They are so much like them.

That's amazing! I can't see why they couldn't at least get a sense of familiarity from you.

[Melody]

I have a few cichlids for that very reason, intelligence, personality and for some, their looks can grow on you over time. For me, it's their mating & breeding rituals that interests me. Within the group, you can have mouth brooders, harem and colony spawners, rock, cave or shell dwellers etc., whatever nature threw at them and the end result is what they need to do to adapt and survive.


Good point! Even Zap still carries eggs on occasion. The first time she did it I thought she was sick - scared me to death.:rolleyes:

[GaryofMontreal]

Melody wrote: "I can't believe yours don't talk to you, but other than that they seem very interesting indeed."

I once had two cichlids that were beating the heck out of each other. I only had space in their tank - nowhere else. I separated them with a net, tried moving decor, everything. Nothing worked. Finally in a moment of "hey, why not" I put my hand about 2 inches from the glass, fingers together. The fish looked and I moved my finger tips like an angry alpha male wriggling his tail. They froze. I 'charged' the glass and waved the fingers again. The male rushed back and I spread my fingers at him. He stalled in mid-charge and skedaddled. They started fighting ten minutes later so I showed them the mighty hand of fake cichlidom and the fight ended. They reckoned there was one freaking big male out there, and the male cichlid wasn't going to act up in its territory.

About a month later, they got rowdy again, but by then the female (they were Herotilapia multispinosa) was bigger and readier, so they spawned instead of half killing each other. For years, they were a lovely couple. By then, they had learned to swim with the godzilla hand, but when the male got feisty and displayed to it, all I had to do was wiggle my spread fingers and he'd back down. It was interesting. My cichlids (thankfully) don't talk to me, but for once, I figured out how to talk to them.

[CACAdmin]

That's priceless... they must have figured that was one might huge cichlid out there. :laugh:

[Melody]

:laugh: That's way cool. You have to video that!

[corrosionjerry]

Interesting theory on it being more common for us to be attached to one or two fish in a tank, James. It makes sense that we'd view them more as individuals and get to know them as such. I hadn't thought of that. They still need a personality to hook me, but if I had a school of 'Zaps' I'm sure I wouldn't be as attached to any one of them.[/quote]

I happen to have a tank of Zaps... and I can tell you something about each and every one of them...they deffinetly have some differences in personality..

I can say the same for my other cichlids as well...

[Melody]

So an addict is an addict is an addict after all then....lol.

[corrosionjerry]

yep....lol

[michaeljames]

first off melody there are many articles on fish intelligence and cichlids are at the top of that list (whales and dolphins are not fish lol) N.A.S.A has even stuidied cichlids such as jack dempseys, red devils, midas, and green terrors for theyre memory, recognition, in particular. its hard to find but its out there. personally as mentioned before, I picked up mickey (red devil) as a 1 inch for 10 bucks, spent tons of hours face to face at the glass, over time I took his personality for granted, like my baby dolphin or somthin lol I got a roommate 2 years ago and I am not home most of the time and one day he says to me "mike, you know..mickey knows when your home, he acts different" I was like what do you mean?" and he says "well when your not home for days at a time, he just sits at the bottom, stares at people but dosent react to ANYthing around, he dosent move much, but when you come home, he swims like crazy, splashin and all frantic and happy. I swear he knows when your home" and I gave it some thought, I notice if others approach the glass, he looks but almost cautiously, he does know who is who because he reacts differently when me my girlfriend or the kids walk by (I pet him occasionally, girlfriend once in a while feeds him and the kids just stare) anyways recently thinking about all of this, mickey used to be in the main room of my bachellor, always in my sight. now he is in the living room and I dont spend much time in the living room, I have noticed a difference honestly..he seems detached from me somehow, so 2 days ago I moved him into my bed room by my computer, at the foot of my bed in another 100gallon and its incredible, he's like back to his old self, if I leave he waits for me to come back, I can type for an hour and he's right there over my shoulder at the computer. kinda reminds me of 6 years ago when he was 1 inch and waiting at the top corner of his tank for me to come home at 5 o clock. p.s mickey is now 16 inches lol like a little boy or dolphin. if you dont know much about red devils and you want to read on cichlid intelligence I suggest you start there. I'm glad you and your son love that electric yellow, my roommate breeds africans in a 100gallon.

[Melody]

I find tidbits about their intelligence occasionally, but very little indepth scientific study. You usually only see that kind of study when there's money in it or a university student does a thesis, etc. Sounds like you don't have a fish at all, you have a friend. :smile:

[CACAdmin]

Mickey sounds like he really enjoys your company... sounds, too, like it's mutual.