Ich treatment not working... help?

[PintoHawk]

Ok, here is the story and all the details...

I have 3 tanks:
20g long (1 Betta, 2 Mollies) Temp steady 79F
20g high (3 Mollies, 1 Betta) Temp 79F
10g fry tank (5 fry about 4 weeks old, Mollies & Platys) Temp steady 81F

All three are planted: hornwort, java moss, water sprites, duckweed

Ammonia test is always 0, bright yellow, perfect.
pH test is perfect, 7.5, maybe close to 8 some days.
I don't have any other test kits, I could maybe get the nitrate one today if that's totally necessary.

In all three tanks, the fish rub against the ornaments (the Bettas have never showed any signs of illness throughout this whole ordeal, only the Mollies & Platys). Sometimes I think I can see spots on the black Mollies, sometimes I am not sure (they are marble & dalmatian, it's difficult to tell).

Currently, one fish in each adult tank is all gimped up, twisted looking, swims clumsy, looks really bad. Recently, had one fish from each adult tank die, same symptoms. Took weeks for them to die, seemed to get better, then died.

I have been using Ich treatment for WEEKS and WEEKS now with NO results.
I took the advice of a fishy friend and overdosed with Ich treatment for a few days then went to the normal doesage, that didn't even help, that was about a month ago.
I have used 2 different brands of Ich treatment. Neither made any improvement.

Until last week, I was doing 20-30% W/C every other day (adding Aqua-Plus and aquarium salt, and my W/C water sits at least overight before adding to tanks). I did a 90% W/C on my fry tank before the weekend hoping that would help, they look lively but they still rub. Since the W/C didn't seem to help anything, I have not done any for several days, although I was thinking I might do W/C today.

I am SOOO frustrated and I am so tired of my poor fish dying & suffering. What else should I try? What should I watch for? What am I doing wrong? (CRIES)

[KnaveTO]

There is a super strain of Ich out there that is nasty to get rid of. However in all cases you can definately see the white spots on the fish. You have stated that you have not seen any spots. If this is the case then it may not be ich but something else. Ich is probably the easiest of parasites to diagnose due to the spots that appear. If there are no spots is is probably something else.

[PintoHawk]

Hmm.. Super Ich sounds nasty, I sure hope it's not that, but I do think you are right, it must be something else they have, because of the lack of spots and the other symptoms. I will try some googling to see what I come up with.

[CACAdmin]

I'm so sorry to hear you're fighting such a battle with this. I'm not sure what the problem is (but I think flicking is usually caused by an irritaion of sort... most often a parasite.). I know how frustrating this must be for you. I haven't had to deal with a lot of illnesses (except Ich a few times and thankfully never a 'super-strain' of Ich.)

Posting details of what you have done so far is definitely helpful for members who might be able to offer advice.

Best of luck with this. Hoping you can put this behind you before too long.

[PintoHawk]

Thank you.. I hope to fix this as soon as I can. I have been phoning all the LFS in my area this morning, asking them all for advice and their different diagnosis.

So far, the only person who was remotely possibly helpful was the fish manager at Petland, who suggested they might be calcium deficient (sp?) and to get them a livebearer formula that has lots of calcium in it.

I also wanted to add, since diet has come up, what they are eating:
dried bloodworms (Bettas & Mollies all gobble it up like candy) 4x a week
frozen bloodworms (same as above) 1x every couple weeks
Flake food, 2 different brands, I switch it up (Bettas pick at this) morning and night, little bit
Betta food pellets, floating (the Mollies don't eat it that I can see)
& an algae wafer once in a while for them to pick at, Bettas won't touch them

I was feeding my home-made food but it makes the water too messy so I haven't in a long time, a couple months maybe... it has: mainly assorted pureed veggies, baby vitamins, garlic, shrimp, bloodworms, tube worms, algae wafers, spirulina.

Maybe I should put them back on the home-made food and just do more W/C to fight the mess it makes? *sigh*

Thanks everyone, for your help! And your concern!

[CACAdmin]

The only thing I can see in their diet that could cause problems is a lot of bloodworms... mollies absolutely love them but they can be constipating and also mollies should have a higher veggie:meat ratio. They need a lot of veggies. (So do we, but mosts of us would rather fill up on chocolate or chips. :rolleyes:

I have no idea if this will have any effect on the situation but I would personally cut back on the bloodworms and increase their veggies (you could add some peas which would not only add veggies but help with any constipation the bloodworms might cause). Also have a look at the veggie content in the flake food. Some are very high in fish meal & starch as opposed to veggies. You could increase the algae wafers (as long as they eat it all) &/or offer spirulina flakes. Just thoughts, diet-wise.

Edit: one addtional question. Have you only lost mollies recently or bettas and platys, too?

[PintoHawk]

I only have the 3 Platy fry, they seem to be thriving. I don't have any other Platys, I sold the parents to the LFS because I wanted to focus on my Mollies. They were in perfect health, that was after the fry were born, I didn't have any weird symptoms at that time, it was like a 2 week span of health and then the symptoms came back. The Platys were never affected though, just the Mollies.

The Bettas are like the happiest fish I have ever had, they cruise around, they flare at stuff, they eat everything I give them, they like the mirror, they like to crawl through the nest of hornwort at the top, they don't even care about my Mollies (occassional flare and halfcharge during feeding time, then cruise away again). No symptoms whatsoever that I have seen, they don't "flash" at all either.

Yes, the Mollies love the bloodworms, but I think you have a good suggestion at feeding less of them. I will do that. I will try anything. I am going to pick up some peas tonight and blanch them and try feeding those, too.

The guy from a big LFS in Calgary (yes I am phoning Calgary even, lol) said he is POSITIVE that some of the fish are inbred and that's why they have bent spines and show these funky symptoms. Some of the fish have never shown any symptoms aside from "flashing".

He might be onto something because 3 of my marble Mollies were purchased at the same time, from the same tank, they were the same size and looked like they were from the same batch, they were built the same... probably siblings... 2 have died from this bent spine thing, and only one is still living, but she shows a VERY droopy/thin tail (not attractive, looks sickly). She dropped about 4 weeks ago, and has seemed to recover fine, just the 'flashing'.

I did a 40% W/C this afternoon on the 20g tall, and everyone looks ALOT more perky. I also cleared out alot of the hornwort that was taking over so there is more swimming area now, and they seem alot happier. Still flashing.

One clerk told me I should put the bent fish down, kill them, and hope the others never catch what they had or hope they were just very inbred and it isn't catching, lol. What do you guys think of that 'option'? It makes me feel sick, but if they are only suffering... I don't know.

[Slipstream]

Get some Melafix and Primafix and dose them both. Those two will clear up MOST fish problems you have, and if the dont, than you can narrow it down a lot easier.

[GaryofMontreal]

Flashing always sets off alarm bells. We blame ich, but velvet (oodinium) is another cause. It can get into the gills of a fish and not always make an appearance on the body until too late. It shows white spots, but tiny ones, like a dusting. Sometimes, the dusting is brownish, but often it's white. I had an outgreak on silvery Geophagus once that took a long time to show externally. I treated for gill flukes, and got nowhere.
Eventually, I got it with acriflavene, although I hate the stuff and what it does to a tank. Fluorescent lime green water for a month, anyone?
Still, the fish that survived my misdiagnosis are alive and healthy now.
Look it up online and see if the symptoms correspond. It's a common disease for softwater fishes.

[GaryofMontreal]

Now, bent spines in farm bred fish. Use gloves to handle anything connected to the tank. Bent spines that develop in adult fish are more often than not symptoms of Mycobacter marinum - fish tuberculosis. There is no treatment.
It's a scourge with farmed fish. It is also a rare fish disease, in that in some cases, we can catch it. Proof? I did once, and it took six months of antibiotic cocktails to cure. It is nasty.
Now, maybe I am alarmist due to that experience, but I will destroy any pet shop fish that twists up or shows tb symptoms. It's better to be safe than sorry, or I guess, to be sorry than to be REALLY sorry. Never put your hands in aquarium water if you have an open cut, especially if you're ill or exhausted. Use gloves.

The good news is it doesn't cause flashing. The bad news is I think you have two problems going at the same time.

[Soggybottom]

Here's an idea if your tanks have been set up in their current incarnations for a long time. I think people call it old tank syndrome. The substrate gets clogged up and nitrates get out of control. I'd definitely recommend getting that test kit if nothing else pans out. And if levels are high you should probably replace your substrate or rinse your gravel 'til its squeaky clean.

[Melody]

Lot's of suggestions here! I'll throw mine in...lol.

Try to find the source of the problem rather than focusing on the results of it and you'll get farther as a rule. The best way to do that is to start with the basics and your environment is step one.

- Frequent, big Waterchanges. Vacuum the gravel & if you have a lot of floating plants, take them out and rinse them in a bucket of clean aquarium water - food and waste often gets caught in them.
- Test kit - they're expensive but you need to rule out spiking. The homemade food could make it worse. Feed very sparingly for now, preferrably a tiny bit every other day. Nitrite poisoning can cause bent spines and 'pH crashes' can occur in spiking tanks. Flashing in a spiking tank or during a 'pH crash' is also common. Mollies would be more sensitive to this than Bettas and a bent spine on a sick Molly isn't unusual. Since this is one thing that includes all of your symptoms, waterchanges and a test kit at this point are crucial.
- Dose aquarium salt.
- There are many parasites out there and Rich Ich Plus tackles pretty much all of them. If the water is ok or waterchanges don't help after a week, do a round of that.
- There is an internal parasite that can also cause a bent spine - they can attach themselves to it. Prazipro kills the fish showing the symptoms and I figure the parasites let go and cause more damage or infection. It does take it out of the tank though.
- It isn't calcium or a lack thereof - fire your LFS :wink: .
- Serious deformaties from inbreeding show at birth or shortly thereafter - Fire that LFS too. Nutrient deficiencies can cause bent spines later, but it's rare if they're fed anything close to a decent diet and you have that covered.
- Melafix and Pimafix are for external bacteria & fungus, they won't help parasites or internal infections or the environment. If you don't see symptoms of something, I strongly recommend that you don't treat for it.
- More than one ailment is definitly a possibility and proceeding with caution never hurts. Certainly superbugs are also a possibility. Recurring Ich is usually a secondary infection caused by a stubborn bug weakening the fish, but anything is possible.
- I would euthanize all fish with a bent spine. I've never had one recover that was that far gone anyway and you don't want it spreading.
- Pick up a q-tank and keep new fish in it for at least two weeks, preferrably longer.

I'm sorry to hear that you're going through all of this. I really think it's all starting in the environment from the sounds of things. More than once I've had a jumble of problems only to find plants filled with food, gravel full of waste, etc. It can't hurt to start there anyway.

Back in the day I had one tank with an undergravel filter plus an HOB filter. I could not keep Mollies in that tank. They faded and died everytime. When I moved the tank I had to drain most of it anyway so I decided to pull out the UGF. There was inches of sludge under it. Cleaned it up, swore off UGF's, kept Mollies in the tank for years. They can't handle pollution to any degree.

Good luck!

[amaruq]

I had the super ich while back. Took weeks and many fish lost.

One thing I learned is that the meds stress the fish out way too much!!!!!

Get Nox-Ich....hike up the temp for a few days and see what happens.

I am so afraid now to buy any fish.

I have quarantined. But i really think when I'm buy anything for the tank.

[PintoHawk]

Wow... brain overload this early in the morning...hmmm. *sips coffee faster*

Ok, yesterday (call it instinct) I actually did exactly what Melody suggested in one of my 20g tanks, I vaccuumed the gravel and took out all the fake plants (yes, lots of nasty under those and the gravel was horrid), and replaced with good, treated, aged water. The fish seemed to perk up almost right away, and this morning they look excellent. Keep in mind this particular tank doesn't have anyone with a bent spine, only one fish that was related to two that DID and died. Hoping this was the right thing to do and I will see only improvement now. (I am thinking I will vaccuum the gravel again today, do another w/c, I know there is still lots of GUNK I missed yesterday. I hate gravel.)

I will be destroying the one who is related (mentioned above) and the other one in the other tank that IS clearly bent. Well, my fiance will be destroying them because I don't think I will handle it well.

I want to add, the fish are bent like an "s" ... when you look at them from above, you see the "s" clearly. Not from the side. All the pictures of fish TB look bent from the side, it doesn't look the same at all. I am thinking too much inbreeding or physiological problems rather than a parasite, but I am not an expert by any means.

My fry are approx. an inch long and I keep wondering if they might be big enough to add to the 20g with the adults & Betta, but I worry they'll get eaten. If I can move them, I can use the 10g as my hospital tank. I also keep wondering how I can safely separate certain fish from others in one tank without losing water flow and filtration, such as the fry or an aggressive fish. (tangent, sorry)

I REALLY appreciate all the responses and suggestions, thank you everyone!! :)

[Melody]

Hobbyists usually hear about three causes of spinal deformaties (Scoliosis) - birth defects, 'Neon Tetra Disease' and 'Fish TB'. Sometimes you'll hear the nutrition theories tossed around (Vitamin C & Calcium). There are quite a few possible causes though, from parasites attacking the spine itself, to parasites causing nutritional deficiencies resulting in in spinal damage, to brain infections, to muscular ailments etc etc etc. To further complicate matters, there are many afflictions that fall under each one.:rolleyes:

With Mollies being exploited for spinal deformaties, genetics can certainly play a part as most of the varieties at the retail level are regularly crossed with each other. Keep in mind though, that saying the fish are inbred and that's the reason the spines are twisted takes the blame off the store. Most wouldn't want to say it's something contagious, etc.

Whatever the case, I'm glad to hear that they're perking up!

[PintoHawk]

I destroyed the dalmatian that was badly gimped last night. *shudder*
She was so beautifully marked, I hate that she had to get sick/deformed/whatever.

The only other fish I have remaining with any sort of issue would be the sibling of the "Bad Three" that I bought months ago (the other 2 are dead now because of the spine issue), and all she currently shows is a very droopy thin tail. I am keeping a close eye on her to see if she shows any other signs.

I have two adult males in great shape (in separate tanks) and only one adult female besides the Droopy Tail Girl. BUT, the healthy female (Silver) has never shown any signs of pregnancy, I have had her a few months now. I am wondering if she might be a male, too, just late in developing. My males have never shown more than one moment of interest in her. My fiance (who knows next to nothing about fish, lol) says she might not be a Molly, but I am sure she is a Molly. The only doubt I have is the lack of breeding. Will try to get a good photo of her...

The 20g I did the overhaul on this week seems to look alot better now; all fish are perky and normal looking for the first time in a long time. Maybe it was the "old tank syndrome" that Soggy mentioned. *shrug*

[CACAdmin]

It's always tough to euthanize a fish but you did the kindest thing. :hugs:

As far as the female of questionable gender, mollies can be late bloomers. How big is she?

[PintoHawk]

She is about 3 or 3 and a half inches long (I have been assuming this was full grown or very nearly). She looks fantastic, nice weight, shiny, active. I only have one other Molly bigger than her, a male. Maybe I should put her in his tank for a while and see if he likes her, maybe it's just that my sailfin male doesn't like her. Picky dude I guess.

[CACAdmin]

I'd say it's pretty safe to say she's not a late blooming male. Also, fish often don't listen to our plans for breeding :rolleyes: (I have no idea why. :twitcy: ). The female is the one who ultimately decides which male gets to deposit his sperm... so it's more likely she doesn't like him...lol. (Also don't worry about the male being the same size or large than the female... the males tend to like bigger gals.) Good luck!

[PintoHawk]

Ok, my fiance is arguing that she is only 2 or 2 and a half inches, our guesses differ quite a bit. That's WITH the tail. Do you still think she is not late blooming, Jay?

I could try putting her with the other male, I suppose, and see if he shows any interest (err, if SHE likes him). ;)

[CACAdmin]

Well, I'd say it's highly doubtful that she's a 'he'. There is also the possibility that the male she was with is sterile. You can always try her with the other male to see if there is interest.