soft water fix needed

[gnome]

sooo have soft water - at this time don't have cycling tanks - so doing frequent water changes. snail shells not good. Put decease brig snail shell into tank - it was bad - but now (i week) gaping holes. Ph - hardness - all at lowest level on mardel stripss. Tryed baking soda /epsom salts - looks good on chem strip when read at i min - but technicolor at 3 min. Snails very unhappy with water change :(. Going internet shopping, help please, need ph up plus calcium up. Bought Seachem reef calcium (calcium polygluconate) is ok?? only calcium available on coast!!! But everyone talks about Kents - so should i get that instead?? Love to support local business but prices are 2 to 3 times more than i can find on line - need heaters , air pumps, chemicals - is there a best web seller? Need to be ready for my baby brigs !!! Off to work i go - will check in later - thanks in advance snail gurus - also i think i like shrimp will their water needs be same as snails??

[thegrandpoohbah]

Crushed coral or aragonite in a little mesh bag placed in your filter is probably the most stable and effective way of buffering your water. A little bit goes a long way so start with a bit at a time then test pH and hardness and increase the amount used as needed.

Or move to Calgary where the pH is 7.8 out of the tap with high gH and kH. :laugh:

[James]

I am not sure what mardel strips are, but our water in Abbotsford is soft also, I get 3 on the KH. I do have some tuffa rock in the tanks to help with that, but I don't add anything else, my feeling is its better to live with the water you have rather than adding chemicals to change it. I am sure others will disagree, but here is a quote from Rex's Web page that makes alot of sense.

"One thing to avoid is the use of any chemical buffers to adjust the pH. Doing so usually results in what I call chasing the dragon. You add the buffer, the pH changes, then in a matter of minutes to days rebounds to the former level. So you add more buffer and repeat the process. This is very harmful to your fish. If you need to lower the pH then use CO2 injection. If you need to raise the kH and/or gH (and very few of us do) then use something like baking soda, for kH or calcium carbonate for kH and gH."

For ordering online, both price and service, try MOPS. They are very good people to deal with, don't think anyone will argue that.

[thegrandpoohbah]

James makes a good point, chemical buffers tend to cause big pH swings which are bad. That's why crushed coral or aragonite works much better.

[Melody]

There are pH additives that are based on increasing the KH, and those that use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) or something similar that are focused on increasing pH only. The biggest swings are caused by the sodium bicarbonate products because the change is drastic, immediate and temporary.

Increasing the pH isn't what we want to focus on, we want to increase the KH which in turn stabilizes the pH. I tried every trick out there but nothing worked on BC water until I focused on KH. When you concentrate on KH with aragonite/limestone/oyster shell, etc., the results are pH stability. Both gentlemen here have recommended methods of increasing KH. Purchasing KH uppers will also help but the dosing should be carefully controlled and you should research the 'ingredients'.

PH swings will kill your fish & snails, so the long-term, gradual solutions are best, like the filter additives or Tufa Rock with water movement around it. Coral will usually level out at a pH of 7.4 - 7.6, coral with aragonite will probably go higher and be more stable.

Upward swings over 8.2 will also erode snail shells and I did that just recently when changing out my filter buffer - I added to much apparently and it spiked, leaving holes in the spires and extreme errosion. Otherwise, acidity is a big issue with shells and a low pH doesn't necessarily mean the water is acidic. If it is though, it will cause that much more shell damage. A low pH won't necessarily kill the snails, but it will damage their shells. Acidic conditions with a low pH seems to bother the snail itself more than just a low pH.

Any calcium chloride additive is fine. Remember to also provide a lot of calcium in the diet.

Most BC water is a challenge to raise snails in no matter what we do. One false move and I have a tank of damaged shells to this day and quite often have scratchy spires at best. They do thrive and breed if I keep that KH stable though.

Good luck!

[CACAdmin]

I use tufa and Texas Holey Rock and only recently have added some oyster shell. Be careful to add gradually until you have reached desired levels.

[James]

Both gentlemen here have recommended methods of increasing KH.

Hmmmm, I wonder which one of us she is leaving out of that "Gentlemen", must be you Jay!

And Ted and Alice say that any snail that does not have a perfect shell, can come and live with them, they are not into perfect!

[CACAdmin]

One other thing I forgot to mention is that I add Kent Marine liquid calcium (calcium chloride) with each water change.

Bought Seachem reef calcium (calcium polygluconate) is ok?? only calcium available on coast!!! But everyone talks about Kents - so should i get that instead??

I have never used Seachem Reef Calcium but I would venture to guess it's fine. However, that's only a guess. Seachem has some info in their Reef Calcium FAQ's (http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/ReefCalcium_faq.html) on what polygluconate is and how it is used in the tank (of course they're referring to a S/W tank, not freshwater). You could always inquire about it's impact on a F/W tank.

Hmmmm, I wonder which one of us she is leaving out of that "Gentlemen", must be you Jay!

And Ted and Alice say that any snail that does not have a perfect shell, can come and live with them, they are not into perfect!
:laugh: That's only because I hadn't put my two-cents worth in yet...or at least that's my story, and I sticking to it.

Ted and Alice are only into 'tasty' not shell perfection.

[Melody]

Hmmmm, I wonder which one of us she is leaving out of that "Gentlemen", must be you Jay!

And Ted and Alice say that any snail that does not have a perfect shell, can come and live with them, they are not into perfect!

That's hilarious because as I typed that I was thinking of you over there going "Melody says I'm a gentleman :biggrin:". But Jay is quite right, there were only two posts when I responded, gentleman or otherwise :laugh: .

[Melody]

I was reading about something else and realized I'd forgotten to mention one of the worst additives for increasing pH - sodium hydroxide. It doesn't impact your GH or KH at all, but can boost your pH to screaming high levels that probably no aquarium could support with enough KH. Just as fast as it spiked, it comes crashing down. This one should be banned from aquarium use entirely, in my opinion.

Sorry to have missed that crucial tidbit. I've got a good grip on what applies to me in the chemistry department, but the rest is somewhat foggy and I sometimes forget details or miss them entirely. :rolleyes:

[James]

Melody, I have seen you list Aragonite before, where do you get it?
I see Caribsea has a substrate that has Aragonite in it, but is it possible to get just Aragonite somewhere to put in filters?

Thanks

[Melody]

I use the Caribsea coral with aragonite because it gives me the best of both worlds. I've also used their aragonite sand. I've never looked further. Snail shells have aragonite in them, some more than others, but you'd have to kill a lot of them...lol. I think it's the structure of aragonite that makes it valuable, otherwise it has the same chemistry as calcite and should perform like any calcium carbonate.

That's a good question - we'll have to go hunting. :yes: It's well represented on eBay.

[James]

Not that I add anything to my tanks other than some tuffa rock, but why can't you use calcium carbonate from the Pharmacist? It comes in both liquid or powder, also some health food stores carry it in powder form.

Really the only thing I add is fert to my planted tank, but then I don't really raise snails and can see that you would need to add calcium for them. Unless you count the pond snails in my planted tank, and they go live with ted and alice once they are large enough to pick up.

[Melody]

Unless you specifically require a higher pH for something, I wouldn't play with the chemistry at all. I didn't for years in fact. The only thing about BC water is the KH appears to be lacking so something to boost that (like Tufa) adds some reassuring environmental stability.

If the drug store calcium carbonate is pure, you can use it. Most of them have additives. Not all calcium carbonate is created equal so the source will tell you a lot. Some are based on Oyster Shell, for example, others just say it's calcium carbonate and you don't know where it comes from. Anything human grade is more expensive so that's a factor, but I do use it in my homemade foods because it's regulated.

You can also get big bags of Dolomite at Garden centres. Again, make sure there are no additives. Garden grade can come with it's own risks, such as metals & so on. Canada has some of the most pure Tufa in the World and mine is from a local deposit, so I don't worry so much about that.

Anything can have impurities (including lead) but some are regulated, like those used for feed or humans.

[James]

Well as I said, I add nothing to my tanks, rather use the water I have than try to change it. The planted tanks of course run a ph of 6.5 but that is from CO2 for plants. The rest of my tanks stay at 7.8 which is normal for abbotsford water. I was just curious if you ever used something like that for calcium.

[Melody]

7.8 is high for these parts, you definitly don't need anything there. I'm lucky to hit neutral if I don't use anything to buffer.

[gnome]

so got sum liquid aragonite - aragamilk (calcium+buffer) from smaller(i think) Van store does mail order also - not sure on rules with store names - ok or not ok? Did a glass o'water test - up ph alk but not gh suprisingly - BUT base water chem had changed - with rain and stuff -- do any of yu'all get seasonal changes?????????????????????/

[Melody]

Yes & no - tap parameters can change as chemicals can alter the chemistry. Chemicals vary in amounts according to season (as it applies to city water that is). They're reasonably stable as a rule though.

Aragamilk is accumulative - you have to add it over a period of time before you see test results. However, when it does kick in it can go really high so in freshwater it's best to wait a few days and test between doses. I can see it in my fish - they feel that pH swing so I do a waterchange. If the fish act differently, nevermind the tests and ease up on the additives.