Why aren't my Cherry Shrimp Red?

[Melody]

Why is it that people get Cherry Shrimp from the very same person I get them from, yet their's are red and mine are speckled red if I'm lucky? The ones I recently bought that were really red are keeping their color so far (wanted to mix up my genes), but after seeing Blaine's, which came from the same source as my other ones, I'm downright whiney....lol. They're spoiled rotten, fed all of the best foods including a good dose of natural color enhancers, there's lots of plants, its not their genes, they don't act stressed... so what is it exactly? I thought maybe the water might be too hard as its adjusted for the Blue Ramshorns but <insert whiney voice> Blaine's is harder!

What do we know about these things exactly? Pale usually means a creature isn't happy and I simply cannot have that:no: . If I can't keep them happy I don't want to keep them at all... and I'm pretty much stuck with them because technically they're my Son's creatures.... <insert nagging voice> I just wish he'd remember that when there's work to be done for them :rolleyes: .

Any advice would be much appreciated, thanks!

[blainep]

Well, if it's any consolation, only one or two of my Cherries are a bright red.
Most of the females are more brown than red. The males never really get any colour, they tend to stay clear.

I read, somewhere, that Cherry Red was bred for colour from wild brown shrimp, much your colourful Red Ramshorn snails.

Maybe some selective breeding is in order to get yours their reddest. Right now I'm just happy to get mine to breed at all, but I may try breeding mine for more colour as the population increases.

[Edgezilla]

I think their diet is what brings out the color. The tank that gets the beefheart mixed tends to be redder than the tank that doesn't get them. The high iron and vitamins in the food might be bringing out the color. Or it could very well be the amount of algae in the tank. :swoon:

Another possibility is the organic acids (humic acid, amino acid, etc) in the water but I am leaning toward their diet for color.

I am guessing the speciality food for CRS that brings out the CRS color will work just as good for the cherries.

Have to ask those who are using the CRS food with cherries shrimp to confirm this.

[Melody]

I have been wanting to selectively breed them, hence diversifying the gene pool, so that's a possibility for sure and it makes sense for a color morph. The Red Ramshorns only took a generation or two to get back into a brilliant red. Now I'm bringing a clear shell base into the line so that should really do the trick.

But back to Shrimp, I can't imagine how I could improve their diet - I'm obsessive over diet. I don't use red meat though so you could very well be onto something there. I don't have anything against it so much as I think beef hearts are icky :Eeewww: . Yes, I know, I'm such a GIRL....lol. Is there any info anywhere about their nutritional requirements or even how their coloration works? I like knowing the science behind things.

Is this the magic CRS potions that nobody knows the contents of? I always figured they were something simple that someone is making a killing from, like 'snail milk', which is liquid calcium....lol...they work, but we could probably imitate it easily.

Gonna have to start playing in the cauldron just for them I suppose. I do feed them flaked Krill periodically but Krill fouls the water so fast that I try to stay away from it as a staple. Unfortunately, its also the main ingredient in most color enhancing food.

Up until now I thought it might be that the store Shrimp were all hormone treated - apparently not.:confused: I guess I'll be able to label it as genes if I manage to keep Mr. Edgezilla's Shrimp red - they're stunners. The new Spirulina Tabs might help too. I am definitly short on algae all the time - haven't seen a spot of it in years (that I didn't grow intentionally) because of the snails.

Definitly some possibilities to think about, thanks!

[mixixe]

I'm feeding my cherry shrimp hikari crab bites and algae wafers and they are very red, but mine don't breed?

[hp10BII]

hmmm...I have a mixture of red ones and pale ones. My juvie Cherries are paler, my larger ones (over 6 - 9 months) are a deep red. I keep my Cherries with pygmy corys so they get a mixture of algae/bottom feeder wafers, Hikari Crab Cuisine, shrimp pellets, veggies and bloodworms.

I do use that mysterious shrimp/mineral powder, but I don't think that is the reason for it, the adults were red before I started using the powder.

Temps on the lower range of 70's, pH neutral, KH pretty much zilch, TDS up a little bit...don't know how much because I don't have a TDS meter, but still considered soft.

[hp10BII]

I'm feeding my cherry shrimp hikari crab bites and algae wafers and they are very red, but mine don't breed?

Do you have any boys in there? Boys are pretty pale, slender and smaller in comparison.

[Edgezilla]

boys can get really red too but not solid red. Redder than the females at the BA Burnaby store. I feed them a mixture of tetra tablet, hikari algae wafer, wardley shrimp pellet. In the big tank shrimps also gets beef heart mixed. Don't take the chance of feeding meaty food in a small tank, it can foul up water really fast, usually overnight.

I have a few solid red females and really bright red males I am using to see if they produce better offspring color. Should see some result in about 3 months.

[Melody]

Hmmm... maybe it is genetics then, at least in part. I keep them at room temp and it can dip down to 68F because I like it cool - could that be too chilly?

The other thing I did up until now is keep them in small tanks - always under 5G's, because they're a pet more than a breeding project. Maybe they needed more waterchanges in a tank that size. They're in a 10G now.

[Edgezilla]

I don't do a lot of water change in the cherry shrimp tank. once a week with 50% straight tap. The tank is lid by 2x 4' HO T5 6500k GE starcoats bulb over 5x 10 gallons. They are mostly for growing plants without CO2, HC crypts, fissiden, swords etc. Maybe lighting has something to do with the color as well. I feed the inhabitant 1/4 to 1/2 piece of hikari algae wafer + alternate between wardley shrimp pellet and tetra tablet daily.

I keep the water at 73f to 80f depending on tank, but 73f is the minimium I would keep them in.

There is an eheim internal filter circulating the water. The taiwan blue shrimp in a different tank really took off once I added an internal eheim to the tank. They were really sluggish with just an airstone. Good water circulation will improve their daily activities. I don't think a HOB is the best way to go for shrimps. The waterfall might be too much for them or not enough overall water movement.


My stock came from 1 female from fin-ormenal. Talk about nonstop breeding action. :twitcy:

[mixixe]

I think that temp for cherry shrimp need to be higher like 78 degrees.

[Melody]

Well that's cheating Mr. Edgezilla - you're sunburning them! :laugh:

My temps might be playing a part - I'll add a heater. I always thought they liked it cooler.

Maybe I feed them too many things - they love their peas though so I can't imagine taking them away from them...lol.

I use a box filter which they seem to like - they sit on it and eat all the time....lol. Turn that airstone into a filter for $4 - gotta love that.

One female... that's amazing!

[hp10BII]

hmmm...maybe temps then? I have 2 tanks side by side, the only difference is the light spectrum and temps. One @ 78* the other 73*, but I do notice more deeper red adults in the warm water tank than the cooler water one?

[Edgezilla]

I was cleaning a filter today and noticed 2 cherry inside the cannister filter. They were almost crystal clear with little to no color.. This is in a tank with average temp of 80f.

[mixixe]

http://www.petshrimp.com/redcherryshrimp.html

It says temp ranges from 70-78 but from other websites I hear they prefer warmer temps but can survive in lower temps. ??

[Melody]

I have no idea where I got the idea that they like it cooler....lol.

I think temp just may be related then. Mr. Edgezilla, maybe the shrimp in the filter weren't very red because they couldn't get the proper nutrition in there or something... or they were scared out of their mind. I don't think I'd be very happy in a filter were I them.:wideeyed:

I'm sure there's several factors involved, just like with fish. Stress from any source will make them pale, color enhancing foods color them up via internal means, genetics, etc. The one thing I'm not doing is temp so I'll give that a whirl. I appreciate your comments and I'm still listening if you have more :D .

[hp10BII]

I cleaned out the canister filter on the 78* tank this weekend, found a half dozen cherry shrimp and some fry. The shrimp were very pale as well, come to think of it, I'd probably be ghostly white if I were stuck in a canister for any length of time.

It sounds like a combination of things for the deep red in Red Cherries, never really thought much about it because, well, they were red for me. Probably the same thing with breeding too, why some tanks would produce shrimplets and others don't?

[Melody]

Its the same problem as with snails I suppose - no big money in studying them like there is with cats & dogs, so nobody has done it on a scientific level to any degree. Therefore we learn from each other. That makes it very important to keep talking. In the case of snails, the webmaster (who now has a PhD) of Applesnail.net, couldn't find a thing about them when he acquired some years ago. He started a site and put what little he could find on there. The rest came from his own studies, along the conversations and studies of people in his forums.

I eat this stuff right up, take notes, the whole nine yards. :GEEK: Its nice to have more experienced shrimp-keepers to discuss it with, since I haven't really been into them long.

[Soggybottom]

I'm sure you know this, but age is the single biggest factor in my experience. Just speckles until they are basically full size. I also thought I heard somewhere that they will be reddest in a tank with red in it. Substrate, ornaments, whatever...

[Melody]

I'm sure I knew no such thing...lol....I find the shrimp info to be way too spread out so I haven't seen much more than the basics.

The environment makes sense though - several species can 'chameleon' to one degree or another I'm told, so maybe they just have a touch of the ability.

I wonder if Mr. Edgezilla has that reddish clay substrate?

[Edgezilla]

The tank I have the reddest cherries are kept in grayish black substrate. The lighter color cherries are kept in a redish flourite onyx mixed. This does not mean they are solid color or anything, just the color is brigther.

If anything, the darker substrate enhances the color, but I still believe that diet is more important than the natural surrounding.

One of the solid red gave birth last week. I should see the result in 2 months. She dropped her shrimplet in a different tank with the taiwan blue shrimps while I was doing some remodeling to their main tank.

A little off topic I noticed 2 color variation with the taiwan blue shrimp. Some are speckle blue, some are speckle maroon red and some are colorless.

Age does have an influence on how much color is on the body, but this is not always true. I have had full grown females that are pale and full grown females that are almost solid red.

[hp10BII]

I'm stretching the topic a little bit, but I caught this bright red cherry with a big tan line. Either that or she needs a bigger shell

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r295/hp10BII/IMG_3811.jpg

[Melody]

One of the solid red gave birth last week. I should see the result in 2 months. She dropped her shrimplet in a different tank with the taiwan blue shrimps while I was doing some remodeling to their main tank.

Consider me on your waiting list ;) .

A little off topic I noticed 2 color variation with the taiwan blue shrimp. Some are speckle blue, some are speckle maroon red and some are colorless.

Taiwan Blues are one of the species that will change according to the background color they're on, if I recall correctly. Mr. Mykiss observed the same thing.

Age does have an influence on how much color is on the body, but this is not always true. I have had full grown females that are pale and full grown females that are almost solid red.

Genetics are the basis of most things color-related, so I would assume that their color potential/limitations would be indicated by that first. After that it could be influenced by diet, parameters/environment, etc.

Kinda (but not really...lol) like tanning in humans - everyone tans to a certain extent, but some people burn easily while others can go from Caucasion to almost Native coloring in a couple of months over Summer. I tan to varying shades of gold but never get really dark. It doesn't matter that some people tan very dark, my genetic history only allows for Gold shades and no matter how the environmental factors change, I'll only ever get so dark. The similarity ends with the inherited color capacity of course - you can't exactly compare shrimp to humans... except very short ones :laugh: .

[Melody]

I'm stretching the topic a little bit, but I caught this bright red cherry with a big tan line. Either that or she needs a bigger shell


Its all Shrimp coloring - close enough ;) .

She's a beaut! I want on her waiting list too!

[Soggybottom]

Lol, one of mine looked like that after it got stuck in the filter intake. It died a couple of days later :no:

[Melody]

Mr. SB! That will not happen to that one! Its.... hmm.... premolting coloration that's all!

[cyber_ecco]

Here are pics of my female cherries and taiwan blue. I've got them in a 5 gallon heated to about 78 degrees, 7.0 pH, heavily planted with java moss and java fern, dark gravel and a couple Philips daylight 15W 6500k spiral CF bulbs from home depot. No CO2. I use a internal Fluval 1 in it. Only shrimps and some of snails I got from you Melody.:yes:
I feed everyday couple of Hikari catfish wafers and some sinking shrimp pellets. 50% water change every week with conditioned tap water. I get both shrimp types breeding all the time. From what I noticed, my females did not colour up really red till they were quite a bit older. Males obviously don't get much colour either way. I will tell you that genes have a lot to do with it. I've experienced with a few different stock and from viewing the parents they came from, I know genes are a huge part of it. To be honest though...despite all this, my females from my 32g plant tank are just as red as the ones in my 5 gallon and breed in there from time to time as well. not as frequently though, or maybe they just get eaten by the fish most of the time. That tank have high light, preassurized CO2 with ph of 6.6. Basically, I think if the tank is healthy they seem to breed in variable conditions.

Gord.

[Melody]

Thanks for the details - this conversation has been very helpful & interesting. I think heat was probably a big factor in my particular tanks. I added a heater and so far Mr. Edgezilla's Shrimp have kept their color. I suppose if they lost some it would be difficult to tell unless I got more Shrimp from him, so I may do that eventually just out of interest. I'd like to get some of yours too Gord - need anymore snails? :D lol

On the genetics front, the shrimp I already had have better color with the heat too, but not as red yet. The older females are indeed the reddest so I'm sure y'all are right on that count too.

I think my breeding frequency has always been normal but I have nothing to compare it to as yet so we'll see :smile: .

[Edgezilla]

Their color seems to be quite consistent. They don't lose color over time or from transferring between tank.


I have way too many shrimps again. I need to unload them to free up the tank for selective breeding.

[Melody]

Ya know what you need in those tanks Mr. Edgezilla? Those nice non-plant-eating snails. They'll work hard keeping that extra food eaten up and trim the dead plant material. In fact, I'd be willing to do a trade with you too, JUST because I like you.

Did you buy any of that? :D

If not, I would definitly like some more as well as a plant or two and cory's etc etc etc, and will be in touch when my wallet recovers from a trip to the commercial wasteland called Christmas. I just put a big food order in so I have to pay for that when it arrives or a certain member will make me do waterchanges in his fishroom for months :wideeyed: .

[Edgezilla]

Did you buy any of that? :D

Almost... I have been pondering on getting something other than pond snails to keep the glass clean. I don't have that many otocinlus around to spread out and the shrimps stress them out quite a bit. They like to climb all over the oto and pick on their body for food :err:.

The shrimps will be going to the pet shop soon. I need the tank for breeding zebra oto.

[Melody]

Well then you can just drop them off to me instead of the store, and pick up some masculine pink snails. The shrimp ride around on their shell - its hilarious :laugh: . When they breed you can sell them on your plant site as the perfect plant companion :biggrin: .

No pressure...lol... but the option is there if you want to give them a whirl. I'll stop bugging you now... for today anyways ;) .

[Edgezilla]

I would gladly accept C. harbrosus as a trade :laugh: or any dwarf corydoras. Something about pink snails doesn't rub me the right way. Maybe white/blue? black?

[Melody]

I'll PM you so I can stop boring everyone with my trade-pitches :SLEEP: .

[babypiggy]

hey melody
it's been awhile :P

there are a few reasons why i think they are not red
1. their sex
- males are really dull in color compared to females which can be bright red

2. their diet
depending on what you are feeding ti will enhance your shrimps color... sounds weird but try bits of frozen krill or sinking shrimp pellets

3. water quality
they like really clean water in cooler temps

4. stress

[Melody]

Hey BP, good to v-see you :smile: .

I have it all down but temp. So far that seems to have done the trick in keeping the red ones red, but there's still some from another source that aren't nearly as red so I think those are genetics. They're big, all fed the same diet which includes natural color enhancers, conditions and parameters are supreme, its the females I'm judging and otherwise they appear to be content - active and breeding. So by the process of elimination all I can come up with is the temp and genetics for my particular situation. Definitly everything discussed and suggested plays a part though.:yes:

[Edgezilla]

I think I got this nail down.

The solid color on the shrimp is genetic and age. The brightness of color is environment. i.e water condition, temp, food etc. Bascially, if they feel uncomfortable or stress, they will look pale despite having a solid color body. A few of the small shrimplet from the solid female produce a few near solid shrimplet (1.25 cm), 15 days since I posted about seeing shrimplet in the taiwan blue shrimp tank. Alas, that female passed on a few days after birth.

[Melody]

That makes absolutely perfect sense! Nice work. Sorry to hear about your female, but she's certainly left you some nice genes.

That's much like fish in fact. They inherit their color but it can be enhanced with food, hence the success of color enhancers.

Just a note for those shopping for Red Cherry Shrimp - some can be treated with hormones by the breeder/distributor, so they look much more red in the store than they will a few months down the road. That isn't always the case of course, its just something to keep your eyes open for.