Melody
May 9th 2009, 01:42 AM
When L144 Isn't L144 & Other BN Genetics
I was thinking about back-crossing one of the so-called L144 hybrids to the opposite parent to see what I could learn about the genetics. Therefore, I've been doing some reading in foreign languages again...lol...and I found some interesting info.
The breeders in Germany believe that the common hobby 'L144' is a colour variant of one of the common BN Plecos (which refers to at least two species and hybrids), just like the albino's, piebald, calico, white tip, longfins, etc. Some North American breeders have also accepted this as fact.
There was a wild L144 imported from Paraguay, which was pale yellow with black eyes. It's debatably non-existent, or at most very rare, in the hobby today. What we all have is almost definitly NOT L144, but Ancistrus sp. "L144".
What appears to have started this mass confusion even amongst experts, is translations. Once the stories entwined, there was a zillion versions of it passed around. The closest I came to something of an explanation was from a German breeder. He says that there was one pale yellow male L144 imported and it was crossed with a wild coloured female as is told in North America. That line of direct descendants from the original male was lost, but several similar strains exist today. Nobody has ever documented another wild import of yellow L144. This breeder has today's variants and has tried to track the originals several times. He figures the hobby version of L144 is either an amelanistic limited form of this species (http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showproduct.php/product/866), or a hybrid of that and other common BN species (scroll through the page for some stunning photo's).
To further complicate matters, the 'amelanistic limited' term is obscure and not commonly used (even by the above mentioned breeder). We have all of these breeders thinking their fish are xanthic, yet some lines throw fish with a black patch. Rumours flew and continue to fly about judging a line's purity based on if, and how often, brown patches appear in the line. In their way of thinking, the black patches are throws from a dark outcross. That's a total farce. A fish is either xanthic or it isn't - if it threw non-xanthic fry occasionally due to a cross, those fry would be dark, normal versions. Xanthic, to the knowledge of these breeders/experts, was the closest applicable colour form so that's what it was labelled. What they apparently didn't realize is that amelanistic comes in two forms, with 'amelanistic limited' producing the occasional (very limited) black pigment. That's what the hobby version of 'L144' does.
The confusion only got worse when the hobby specimens were added to ID galleries
World famous expert Ingo Seidel mentions the two 'L144' versions in his 1998 presentation, which was later translated from German:
Although there is also a yellow Ancistrus with black eyes from Paraguay, there additionally exists another black-eyed version of bristlenose which is very pretty. The animals are substantially more attractively colored than the albino bristlenose. Their background colouration can be orange yellow in full. Due to the vast number being bred in captivity, further mutations will probably appear in the future.
Even more became clear with further reading. There are at least two common BN species that fall under 'common BN'. No surprise there, but the strange throws that seem to contradict the laws of genetics, like two albinos producing regular colour offspring, are due to more than one species being involved. Their genes are different so they don't work together in the same way. You aren't necessarily breeding two albino fish of the same species, so the genes won't necessarily remain dominant, nor will the double recessive albino gene in both necessarily result in a percentage of albino offspring.
This is also what is responsible for the vast array of variants in the hobby today. In fact, you can still see the differences in albino species quite often, be they purely one species or a hybrid. Some have visible light spots all over and/or the white tips, just as we see on the various dark versions. Others don't have visible spotting but you can see the white tips, etc. It is further demonstrated in the longfins - some have veil tails and some have entirely long finnage including the tails. Different genes working in different ways in different species, with modifiers adding their own twist.
It can also work in reverse, which is why Jay can get Black-eyed Gold BN's in his tank from breeding 'White Tip' common BN's. It's also why member Mykiss and co. have crossed 'L144' to 'calico', albino, etc, and everytime they get common brown offspring (which would also happen if the fish were truly xanthic forms of the common brown BN's). It explains why Kat was finding all sorts of strange colour mutations in her tanks too.
Last but not least (and the whole incident that started me researching this stuff), it's why Pam can cross two albinos and get all brown offspring. The albino genes came from two different BN species and didn't remain dominant as they would if they were from the same species. What's more, those offspring could inherit one species' albino gene, the other species' albino gene, an albino gene from each species or no albino genes at all, and STILL be brown in all scenarios. Somewhere down the line one brown descendant could hook up with another brown descendant, the albino recessives could match up and poof! Albinos magically appear.
This is the first time I've heard something that even remotely made sense in regards to BN genetics. The stories and arguements all over the Internet will no doubt continue for a long time. I'm sure there are factors I'm not aware of (like there could have been another import of the true yellow L144 for all I know, but it seems doubtful that such an event wouldn't be specifically reported somewhere). As Mr. Seidel indicates, the possible mutations are virtually endless within the little BN's we breed today, but even if it quacks like a duck, it isn't a duck. It's a fine demonstration of why we should never label a species based on colour/pattern alone, that's for sure.
So here are my Ancistrus sp. 'L144', the common BN Mother and her hybrid offspring that isn't actually a hybrid at all... sort of:twitcy: . The offspring has a different pattern and the band at the caudal base which I'm sure I read somewhere is an identifier for one of the common browns, but I can't find it again.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144-Pair3.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144-Pair2.jpg
Common BN "White Tip" Mother:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-Peroxide_Algae_BN_Pleco.jpg
Offspring from crossing the brown and the amelanistic:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144xAncistrusSp-12.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144xAncistrusSp-11.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------
© Please note: While you are welcome to link directly to this thread,
the contents are copyright Melody McKinnon and cannot be copied.
Thank you for respecting the effort that I have put into our content.
---------------------------------------------------------
I was thinking about back-crossing one of the so-called L144 hybrids to the opposite parent to see what I could learn about the genetics. Therefore, I've been doing some reading in foreign languages again...lol...and I found some interesting info.
The breeders in Germany believe that the common hobby 'L144' is a colour variant of one of the common BN Plecos (which refers to at least two species and hybrids), just like the albino's, piebald, calico, white tip, longfins, etc. Some North American breeders have also accepted this as fact.
There was a wild L144 imported from Paraguay, which was pale yellow with black eyes. It's debatably non-existent, or at most very rare, in the hobby today. What we all have is almost definitly NOT L144, but Ancistrus sp. "L144".
What appears to have started this mass confusion even amongst experts, is translations. Once the stories entwined, there was a zillion versions of it passed around. The closest I came to something of an explanation was from a German breeder. He says that there was one pale yellow male L144 imported and it was crossed with a wild coloured female as is told in North America. That line of direct descendants from the original male was lost, but several similar strains exist today. Nobody has ever documented another wild import of yellow L144. This breeder has today's variants and has tried to track the originals several times. He figures the hobby version of L144 is either an amelanistic limited form of this species (http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showproduct.php/product/866), or a hybrid of that and other common BN species (scroll through the page for some stunning photo's).
To further complicate matters, the 'amelanistic limited' term is obscure and not commonly used (even by the above mentioned breeder). We have all of these breeders thinking their fish are xanthic, yet some lines throw fish with a black patch. Rumours flew and continue to fly about judging a line's purity based on if, and how often, brown patches appear in the line. In their way of thinking, the black patches are throws from a dark outcross. That's a total farce. A fish is either xanthic or it isn't - if it threw non-xanthic fry occasionally due to a cross, those fry would be dark, normal versions. Xanthic, to the knowledge of these breeders/experts, was the closest applicable colour form so that's what it was labelled. What they apparently didn't realize is that amelanistic comes in two forms, with 'amelanistic limited' producing the occasional (very limited) black pigment. That's what the hobby version of 'L144' does.
The confusion only got worse when the hobby specimens were added to ID galleries
World famous expert Ingo Seidel mentions the two 'L144' versions in his 1998 presentation, which was later translated from German:
Although there is also a yellow Ancistrus with black eyes from Paraguay, there additionally exists another black-eyed version of bristlenose which is very pretty. The animals are substantially more attractively colored than the albino bristlenose. Their background colouration can be orange yellow in full. Due to the vast number being bred in captivity, further mutations will probably appear in the future.
Even more became clear with further reading. There are at least two common BN species that fall under 'common BN'. No surprise there, but the strange throws that seem to contradict the laws of genetics, like two albinos producing regular colour offspring, are due to more than one species being involved. Their genes are different so they don't work together in the same way. You aren't necessarily breeding two albino fish of the same species, so the genes won't necessarily remain dominant, nor will the double recessive albino gene in both necessarily result in a percentage of albino offspring.
This is also what is responsible for the vast array of variants in the hobby today. In fact, you can still see the differences in albino species quite often, be they purely one species or a hybrid. Some have visible light spots all over and/or the white tips, just as we see on the various dark versions. Others don't have visible spotting but you can see the white tips, etc. It is further demonstrated in the longfins - some have veil tails and some have entirely long finnage including the tails. Different genes working in different ways in different species, with modifiers adding their own twist.
It can also work in reverse, which is why Jay can get Black-eyed Gold BN's in his tank from breeding 'White Tip' common BN's. It's also why member Mykiss and co. have crossed 'L144' to 'calico', albino, etc, and everytime they get common brown offspring (which would also happen if the fish were truly xanthic forms of the common brown BN's). It explains why Kat was finding all sorts of strange colour mutations in her tanks too.
Last but not least (and the whole incident that started me researching this stuff), it's why Pam can cross two albinos and get all brown offspring. The albino genes came from two different BN species and didn't remain dominant as they would if they were from the same species. What's more, those offspring could inherit one species' albino gene, the other species' albino gene, an albino gene from each species or no albino genes at all, and STILL be brown in all scenarios. Somewhere down the line one brown descendant could hook up with another brown descendant, the albino recessives could match up and poof! Albinos magically appear.
This is the first time I've heard something that even remotely made sense in regards to BN genetics. The stories and arguements all over the Internet will no doubt continue for a long time. I'm sure there are factors I'm not aware of (like there could have been another import of the true yellow L144 for all I know, but it seems doubtful that such an event wouldn't be specifically reported somewhere). As Mr. Seidel indicates, the possible mutations are virtually endless within the little BN's we breed today, but even if it quacks like a duck, it isn't a duck. It's a fine demonstration of why we should never label a species based on colour/pattern alone, that's for sure.
So here are my Ancistrus sp. 'L144', the common BN Mother and her hybrid offspring that isn't actually a hybrid at all... sort of:twitcy: . The offspring has a different pattern and the band at the caudal base which I'm sure I read somewhere is an identifier for one of the common browns, but I can't find it again.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144-Pair3.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144-Pair2.jpg
Common BN "White Tip" Mother:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-Peroxide_Algae_BN_Pleco.jpg
Offspring from crossing the brown and the amelanistic:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144xAncistrusSp-12.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f227/canadiansinternetdotcom/MM-L144xAncistrusSp-11.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------
© Please note: While you are welcome to link directly to this thread,
the contents are copyright Melody McKinnon and cannot be copied.
Thank you for respecting the effort that I have put into our content.
---------------------------------------------------------