To My Friend Chizzow

[Aquafaciata]

Here is a predator that I used to catch as a kid back home in Alberta lakes alot. The U.S. Fish and Game are experimenting with them to keep the snakehead populations in check. I think it will work. Great set of teeth
Just for you my friend:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l269/jameras/pike5309.jpg

Wow Nice set of Teeth
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l269/jameras/pike77.jpg

[Chizzow]

Ahh look at that beauty!

To be honest, the pike may be able to sustain the population of snakeheads in the region, especially young juveniles but once the snakehead reaches its full length, it'll definitely give that pike a run for its money!

Heres a couple of pics of the common problematic snakeheads

channa argus: 100.0 cm TL (male/unsexed; Ref. 56557); max. published weight: 8,000 g
http://www.fishbase.org/images/species/Charg_u9.jpg

picture taken from fishbase.org.

Red Snakehead- Channa micropeltes

http://www.snakeheads.org/images/micropeltes/cMicropeltesIGFAAllTackleWorldRecord_.JPG

http://www.snakeheads.org/images/micropeltes/cMicropeltes7.2Kg.jpg

picture taken from snakeheads.org

:wideeyed:

[Aquafaciata]

Are those actually from the U.S.A. I am amazed dude, crikey . . .

[Melody]

What is the upside of trading one predator off for another? I mean, temporarily it would be great if it worked, but then you have another big population of predators left over. Introductions are risky business.:wideeyed:

[Chizzow]

The entire problem surrounding the introduction of snakeheads into local waters was that native species were being wiped out. In order to eliminate snakeheads, people have tried poisoning the waters etc, which is ironic considering native species would also be eliminated in the process. Now with the introduction of another large predatory fish, I dont see how that would save any native species from being further wiped out. Now you have two 3 foot + predatory fish species :err:

[jones]

would explain why snakeheads are so damn illegal in the states...

thank goodness for our cold cold river systems...

thanks for the pix...
cheers

[Chizzow]

would explain why snakeheads are so damn illegal in the states...

thank goodness for our cold cold river systems...

thanks for the pix...
cheers

I believe some of these are in Ontario:wideeyed:

[Melody]

According to the Government, there haven't been any confirmed reports of Snakeheads in Ontario waters.

Just so you know, they are looking at making them illegal here. I don't know if its passed yet, but they're pushing for it.

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/partI/2005/20050507/html/regle3-e.html

[AquaScaper]

Well so much for my great idea of keeping my snakehead in the bath tub

:rofl:

I actually feel sorry for these fish, they get imported here, sold under false pretenses of making good aquarium occupants and then tossed aside when they are too large/aggressive to care for any more. :(

[Melody]

I hear ya, but I think this one falls more on the shoulders of the buyer most of the time. By the time a fish-keeper wants a fish like this they've usually been researching and want it because its a big predator. Its not the kind of pretty first fish a new hobbyist buys. If they choose to ignore the fact that they can't house it in 6 months, that's their own doing.

That'd be our cue to educate :D . So, my predator-experienced friends, how big would a tank have to be to house these fish to adulthood?

If it can't be housed, it should be euthanized. What is the best way to euthanize a fish of this size?

[Corbin]

depending on the speices of snakehead anywhere from 50g-200or500g depending on how many too.
its a good things there not so common, cuz im sure there would be alot more problems, to many kids would by them for there aggression and probley have snakehead war :no:.
snakeheads are such a misunderstood and itimidating speices.

[Melody]

Yes most invasives get a bad rap, but they'd be just fine if humans left them where they're supposed to be. Be it in their native habitat or permanently in captivity.

It doesn't sound like it can't be done, it just has to be done properly, responsibly and the person has to be in for the long haul. Speaking of which, what is their lifespan?

[thegrandpoohbah]

I think the point of using pike to wipe out snakeheads is that they, unlike a snakehead, can't just up and hop along to the next closest body of water. There is no threat of them spreading like there is with the snakeheads.

[Melody]

Yes, I can see that being an angle, although I don't know about sacrificing one lake in the hopes to prevent a spread. Couldn't they just lay a 'spike belt' affair around the lake? Yes, it could hurt other animals, but if you're willing to sacrifice an entire lake of life, it would be preferrable I should think. Maybe they just intend to restock the lake.

The whole walking thing is blown out of proportion actually, from what I've read. They can slither for a bit if the grass and mud is wet enough and breath air while they do it, but the body of water would have to be very close by for them to make it there on land. Like a Betta, they can last a long time outside of water because they can breathe air, but they'd still dry out eventually. If there is marsh/swamp land between two major bodies of water it could definitly happen.

[CACAdmin]

I have read that some (the Northern Snakehead) can survive up to 3 days out of the water but only in cooler temps and only in shaded, moist/muddy areas.

I have been trying to find out how long they live but so far have been unsuccessful in my search. It would be interesting to know.

[Corbin]

mine didnt make it a night out of the tank on carpet :cry:

[MobileImage]

The air is way too dry over here......

[Chizzow]

Im so excited that we're having a snakehead talk here :yes:

being a huge huge snakehead fan, I don't agree that all snakehead species should be banned like in the U.S and certain parts of Canada. There are actually many smaller species including dwarf specimens such as the rainbow snakeheads which is a wonderful, colorful, little predatory fish for the aquarium. However, I do agree that a restriction should be put on the "giant" snakeheads which include the micropeltes (red snakehead), argus (northern snakehead) and perhaps even the marulius (emperor snakehead) which is rarely found anyways. Red Snakeheads are probably the most common in terms of availability, which doesnt help.

As for the out of water experience, yes they need to be kept wet at all times. They dont just come out of water and stroll down a mile to another water source. I recall theres a movie that was put out a few years back which greatly exaggerated this ability, called Snakehead Terror, which is comparable to Snakes on a Plane :laugh:

Melody: Best way to euthanize such fish would probably be slicing the spine? or I suppose you can eat it! supposedly snakeheads taste great!

[MobileImage]

There is also a movie called Frankenfish in 2004. The stars are a group of genetically engineered Chinese snakeheads :laugh:

Actually, snakeheads do taste great. In Asia, they are often used for soup ;)

[Corbin]

I have to say i dont agree with you Chizzow, i think, micropeltes, marulius. shouldnt be restricted, but more like "wisely sold"? expeshly the marulius, it is an awesome specimen if kept right :yes:.

yes cutting head from body is the best way, i would have ate my snakehead if it wasnt out all night :laugh::nah:

all this talk makes me wanna get a big a** tank and get some.

[Melody]

Very interesting stuff. It is refreshing to have a discussion about a topic with almost totally opposing views and have it be informative and respectful. I, as an almost completely ignorant observer...lol...appreciate an atmosphere that allows me to learn about something without ducking flying objects. :laugh:

Its the Northern Snakehead that I read about most. The little amount that I do know is from material written from a preservationist perspective. Anything I've read in forums on the topic has come to blows so it has been of little use to me. I hope you'll indulge me while I continue to pick brains - its an intriguing topic and one that I think should be discussed for the benefit of all involved and impacted. I want to take advantage of having reasonable people like yourselves here to present both views.

Is that a pretty speech or what? :laugh:

So if we were to consider regulations and the powers that be were sitting here with us (which they always can be on the Internet - who knows?), how should it be regulated do you think? Licensing/permits? Whether you believe they should be allowed with regulations or not, if it were to happen, what regulations would you recommend?

I've read that these fish can drown if they are unable to surface. Does any body of water that completely freezes over take care of any Snakeheads that may have wandered there in warm weather? I believe they've been seen in the New York area - doesn't it all freeze over there?

This is definitly a unique 'monstor fish', with its wandering tendancies, so I'm not sure how one could ensure that it is securely contained if it were kept outside. I would be very interested in hearing what it would take to keep these fish both humanely and responsibly. I think that would be useful to those considering these fish.

Thanks for your thoughts and civil participation. I feel like I'm at a dinner party with friends rather than a rowdy bar :rofl: . Refreshing indeed.

[Chizzow]

I have to say i dont agree with you Chizzow, i think, micropeltes, marulius. shouldnt be restricted, but more like "wisely sold"? expeshly the marulius, it is an awesome specimen if kept right :yes:.

yes cutting head from body is the best way, i would have ate my snakehead if it wasnt out all night :laugh::nah:

all this talk makes me wanna get a big a** tank and get some.

What you mean you disagree with me!!:realmad: jk

although they are both awesome fish, i doubt they could ever be wisely sold. At the end of it all, it is the responsibility of the consumer to research before buying, unfortunately, consumers dont fully consider the full potential size such as the micropeltes which can attain 3 feet easily in a home aquaria. As for the marulius, these fish are reported to hit over 4 feet in the wild, hence the name giant snakehead. I dont think the average person has the room for such fish. Perhaps a license should be implemented therefore people can still keep them if they can prove they have the housing requirements.

[Melody]

A four foot fish.... yup, I see your point. It would take a swimming pool to house that thing. How about tighter control on the suppliers, like with booze & guns? Say one supplier in Canada who meets certain conditions and in turn has to see a license to sell to someone, etc. To get the license one has to be inspected. I guess its cheaper to just ban things. Granted, the average Joe can't own a tiger either, so maybe something could fall under those regulations?

I heard that the Government has to justify bannings & such to some committee or another ... sorry, the details escape me. They got around that with permits in the States. With snails, they're not all banned in all States, yet they will only issue a permit for one species, thereby preventing people from owning them without going through the banning process. Veeeewy sneaky. Not only that, but they now have a registry of the major breeders of each species, because you can't ship them without the permit. If that wasn't enough, they knock on doors and inspect these people's homes at will.:wideeyed:

[Corbin]

thats a bit much there just snails ^

yeah, a license would be a good thing, but like melody said its easier to ban them. but 3-4 feet arent that big, people have RTC that reach 5-6feet. i know a guy on another forum that keeps a RTCs in a large size kiddy pool :laugh:. so it wouldnt be to hard to house one of these, just not in a aquarium, you could make a huge 1000g+ plywood pond or something for a couple 100$. and if you have a swimming pool at your house you can turn that into a pod, some guy went to big als and bought reef sharks cuz he converted his huge pool to a pond/lake :D

[Melody]

I must admit that if I were to someday have a large pond I'd probably go with sharks or something like that, rather than Goldfish/Koi. Because it would make it possible, more than an actual preferance.

Can glass aquariums even withstand the impact of these larger species? I would think that one well-placed flip of a tail could spell disaster in most glass aquariums.

The snails are a problem in the States & Asia because the plant-eaters can clean up rice fields and the like in record time. They're big breeders so they quickly become a pest. The only snail currently allowed with a permit for shipping is the P. Bridgesii because they don't eat plants.

Cana's and their cousins are the big problems. Check out this this pic:

http://plants.ifas.ufl.edu/guide/pomcan2a.jpg

[CACAdmin]

I can't believe the number of clutches:wideeyed:... can you imagine how many snails that will amount to! :swoon:

[Melody]

And that's just one tree on one day in one body of water.:Eek:

[AquaScaper]

I can't believe the number of clutches:wideeyed:... can you imagine how many snails that will amount to! :swoon:

546451541564959 is probably a conservative #:twitcy:

[Corbin]

thats crazy:err:

[blainep]

Looks like the inside of my Cana tank, the clutches just keep coming and coming.

Some mornings there will 3 or 4 new clutches stuck to the side of the tank. :swoon:

[Chizzow]

Corbin: Although there are a handful of people out there who have the money, space and dedication to house larger specimens properly, majority of the aquarists dont. Take a look at all the red-eared slider turtles in our local waters. There are so many around that their even recognized as an introduced species in Canada. People can't even provide adequate housing and care for a 10" inch turtle that produce probably just as much waste as a predatory fish, nevermind a 3-4 foot fish. I guess my argument is that these large fishes are being sold for cheap, and are easily attainable which greatly increase the chance of them falling into the wrong hands. After all, the invasive snakeheads were released by irresponsible owners.

I do see your point and Im happy that you understand the requirement for these awesome creatures :notworthy:

[Corbin]

I see you point :), but i think the turtle thing as a bit more to do with age too :yes:. if i worked at a LFS witch i plan to soon, ill probley get fired for not selling fish to someone cuz they dont have the right kinda tank haha.

[Chizzow]

I see you point :), but i think the turtle thing as a bit more to do with age too :yes:. if i worked at a LFS witch i plan to soon, ill probley get fired for not selling fish to someone cuz they dont have the right kinda tank haha.

Thats what I do already. After a few years of being "nice" and accomodating, I just tell people bluntly that its not suitable for their setups.

ps. I just realized that I can thank people :D

[Melody]

Left field - I think I'll get some Gold/Stripeless Cana's from you Blaine... I'll PM... sorry guys, it just reminded me and I would have forgotten in two seconds if I didn't say something now....lol.:offtopic:

But back to the topic at hand, maybe one or more of you Snakehead Smarties could do up a quick article, doesn't have to be fancy, listing the species and their size, along with what people have to be prepared for if they go for the larger sizes, or whatever you feel like writing about them.

It really bugs me that people don't feel comfortable asking about these fish because they may get too many fingers shaken at them, or worse. That doesn't encourage people to research before buying. I figure if there's an article and discussions like this around, it will result in better prepared hobbyists and maybe open a few minds as well.

For example, I thought all Snakeheads were huge terrors. I just never looked into it more than what I'd read on the preservation side. Some enlightenment never hurt anyone :smile: .

[Aquafaciata]

Well folks I guess I shall just have to stick to Raising discus.
I love Pike best when they are on the end of my line, putting up a fight. But I love em best filleted (no skin) and baked with garlic, dill and butter. . . . YUM.
And as for Snakeheads I shall just leave them for my friend Chizzow.

[Melody]

You've brought about a very interesting and informative discussion with your post and I greatly appreciate that. I grew up in the country and can tie flies with the best of 'em, so I also appreciate your fishing angle. Never landed any monsters but I was damn proud of the first fish I caught on a homemade tree branch rod, presented to my Mother from my pocket ;) .

Thanks for posting - the pic's are awesome.

[mixixe]

Snakeheads are very cool fishes, I didn't know they came in smaller sizes though that could fit in 50 gallon tanks. I assumed they all got monstrously large. Even so, I dont' think any fish should be restricted but I do think that certain fish should not be sold in LFS's but perhaps through direct order with whoever gets the fish, and they shoudln't be widely available. This sort of ensures that some research has been done in aquiring a rare or predatory fish. I dont even think fish like oscars or larger cichlids should be widely available in fish stores as many times these poor fish dont get the proper growing environment from the get go and may be spontaneous purchases. So many predatory fish are sold when they are small and cute (ex. ghost knives), and consumers are not informed with either research or by sales ppl. In the end it's only the fish that suffer. I've never seen a full sized ghost knife on sale in a pet store. I think it's really important to have forums like this so that all fish enthusiasts can learn about different kinds of fish, esp those we arent' familiar with. I'm so glad we have the predator and oddball topic forum :)

[Melody]

I've already more than doubled my knowledge of these fish just since starting the Predator section. :smile:

Its a tough one really, I see pros & cons to almost everything I think of that could control distribution without regulating. Although I don't think that stores are responsible for what a hobbyist buys (unless they intentionally mislead them), I do think that in the case of 'monster fish' they take on a certain amount of responsibility in seeing that the hobbyist knows what they're getting into. Even if it was just a small care card with some information on it by the tank. I would be impressed with a store that did that, and when I'm impressed, I use my credit card ;) . On the other hand, they can only do so much.

If nothing else, we should make sure that all hobbyists get the 'research research research!' message. That will save them, and the fish, a lot of headaches.

[Corbin]

Even if it was just a small care card with some information on it by the tank. I would be impressed with a store that did that

At Noah's Pet Arch they have care card about introducing new fish about QT them first, witch are the speices to watchout for etc.. more stores need things like this indeed

[Melody]

Pacific Aquatics is working on species info sheets (http://www.pacificaquatics.ca/infosheets.html) that are also printable from the web. Its a big job, but its worth it. It would also save the staff time in explaining everything about a fish, as well as be there as a cheat sheet for them if they didn't know about a species. It makes a very positive statement about a store.

[Corbin]

:notworthy: goood job to them

[Melody]

Y'all should post the info card/sheet suggestion in the 'What the masses want (http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showthread.php?t=404)' thread. I've already whined, nagged & demanded enough in that one...lol.

But seriously, stores can't think of everything and they appreciate thoughtful suggestions for the most part. A lot is in the approach I think - if you go at them accusingly or otherwise put them on the defensive, obviously a productive conversation isn't going to follow.:no: