Need Advice

[jewels]

After a nice summer outdoors my fish are now chillin' out downstairs in an unfinished basement.
How often do fish need to eat @ 10 C ?

[Melody]

The 'resting' diet depends on the species. Whatcha got?

[jewels]

Whatcha got?
Ameca's and White Clouds
I know that seems a little cold for the little guys
but . . .
http://www.timeanddate.com/weather/mexico/guadalajara/historic
warmer then their original home last night :smile:

[Melody]

Both could be considered sub-tropical for all intents and purposes. Their metabolism will be slowed but I would still feed them a tiny amount daily. I'd stick to foods that are easy to digest and of good quality. They're not quite in the same category as a cold water fish that's in resting mode, so I'd aim for something in between.

That's a lot of "I would's" because I don't think there has been a lot of study into the resting diet of sub-tropical fish outside of your standard pond fish. I'll check my books when I have a moment to see if they have something more solid to offer. It's an interesting question!

[jewels]

The Clouds are more active than the Amecas. Clouds show exellent colour. I have a big slab of black slate mid water and that allows me to see the 0 .5 mm NLS Grow accumualating on it . The (pond) snails are still active and I have seen them tidying up. Feeding less now, and the snails are keeping up. I was only concerned they would eat more than they could metabolize @ that temp. - if thats even a concern.
Inexpereinced in this area, and I just want to treat them as well as I can.

[Melody]

I probably wouldn't use a growth formula as they are usually geared towards higher lipid/protein levels (I don't know about NLS because I don't feed it as my fish didn't digest it well). Goodeids (females especially) should have more vegetation in their diet than it provides though, they won't produce a vegie formula for some strange reason. Omega One Vegie (not Super Vegie, they have a regular Vegie that's a happy medium) would be my choice in commercial food. Omega One's supplementation can't be beat.

However, if they're doing fine don't let me make you worry. You know your fish and will notice if they appear to be having issues. :yes:

I can always tell when I'm in over my head with these scientific books. Half of the time there's a big word for what I'm looking for that I'm not aware of, so it takes me forever to find anything. If it wasn't for Google, I couldn't even read some of them. :confused: I'll keep looking though, it's an interesting topic.

[jewels]

Goodeids should have more vegetation in their diet
Very Goody point ( weak pun intended ):swoon:
I had never really considered that.
I ran out of NLS Grow once, so I was using a mortar and pestle to grind down some larger sized sinking food. One of my barbs got a hold a a chunk that was way, WAY, to big and I swear I watched it choke for two days before it recovered. Yes, I am a cheapskate but , , , I decided to never let that happen again.
Besides the brands reputation I have started using the NLS Grow exclusively mostly due to its small pellet size. It is a one size fits all food I can put in any of my aquariums. Now reading what I have typed I realize that size should not be the only determining factor when considering a food source
.:no: I don't feed them sand or toaster leavings ; do I ? :no::Nobodys_Perfect:
Thanks for the voice of reason. I resolve to consider this
( finally a resolution I can keep!!):SayHearSeeNoEvil:

I like the Grow because the grains can be crushed between the fingers and I have never lost a fry ( Ameca, Alfaro, or Barb) using it.
No, I do not work for NLS - come to think of it they work for me !
Kinda :offtopic:but I have a tendency to gravitate towards smaller fish. Besides a common Pl*co ( my wife rescued) Alfaro's are my largest fish.

[Melody]

A lot of people like NLS, it just didn't work for me. There's thousands and thousands of species in the world, many with those little catches like the A. splendens have. Digestive system morphology and variances in bio-availability amongst species testifies to that. There isn't an unbiased expert out there that doesn't believe in a varied diet and that fresh is best.

I'm not a big fan of any highly processed food for that matter, so it's not like they could make me happy if they actually did try...lol. In my mind, it's a multi-vitamin supplement. There's nothing they can do about it because it all has to be processed at screaming high temperatures. It's a sacrifice we make for the convenience of dry pet food.

The difference between fish food and other pet food, is the manufacturers of other pet foods (mainly dog & cat) are catching on that we're more educated now. I was floored when I attended a trade show and questioned a 'natural' pet food manufacturer. I came right out and said "But the vitamins aren't naturally sourced because of the heat..." to which he didn't hesitate to reply "That's right." Guess who I trust more now? Marketing that is based on truth is much more profitable in the end.

How's that for off topic? lol

That said, we all have our preferences and reasons for them. As long as we're making an effort to educate ourselves through unbiased sources, resulting in informed decisions, all should be well with our personal preferences. We can't allow ourselves to be bullied into believing something is the best without becoming educated enough to sort the fact from the fiction. We should never blindly take someone's word for anything when it's in their best interest to make a sale, be that Omega One, myself or anyone else. :yes:

[Xiph]

Goodeids (females especially) should have more vegetation in their diet than it provides though, they won't produce a vegie formula for some strange reason.


Not meaning to hijack the thread, I remember reading the article at the NLS site and it had several places that talked about this. I'm going to quote those sections, the entire article is over at http://nlsfishfood.com/

Pg 3:
In the wild, herbivores have to eat constantly for at least 12 hours per day in order to ingest sufficient nutrients. During this period they discharge waste constantly. Under artificial environments, as in an aquarium, they no longer have an unlimited amount of food to graze upon, and even if you could feed them every hour on the hour, it would add massive amounts of pollution to your aquarium. Keep in mind that an aquarium is not even a tiny fraction of a drop in comparison to the volume of water found in an ocean or large lake. In order for aquarium-raised fish that are classified as herbivores to thrive, they must take in sufficient nutrients from their diet, and what takes place in the wild can simply not be duplicated in an aquarium setting.

Over the years many hobbyists have been led to believe that fish classified as herbivores must eat a diet that's mainly made up from vegetable content in order to truly thrive in captivity, but this is simply not the case. In the past I have failed miserably when using this approach with herbivores, and I have learned from my mistakes. While I could have gained a great deal financially by creating yet another fish food formula marketed specifically for herbivores, using mostly vegetable content and green dye, it would have been unethical to do so. I simply could never manufacture and market a product that will not truly benefit the fish.

Pg 8:
Spirulina and Vegetable Matter:
In recent years Spirulina algae has been promoted to a point that almost every hobbyist and manufacturer alike have jumped aboard the Spirulina bandwagon. Many hobbyists seem to think that they need to add large amounts of Spirulina into their fish's diet, which is simply not the case. Although Spirulina algae is indeed a high quality raw ingredient, and it does have its place in most feed applications, it is very high in vitamin A and mineral content.

Since vitamin A is a fat-soluble vitamin, excessive amounts ultimately can lead to toxic levels in a fish. While an inclusion rate of 5% to 10% will increase growth rates, with the added bonus of enhancing the color blue, too much of this raw ingredient will simply impart an unnatural color to the fish, and/or cause long term health issues related to vitamin A toxicity. Most decent quality fish foods already contain sufficient spirulina, and feeding more than what is actually required by the fish is counter productive to say the least.

Fiber comes from plant materials, and it should always be kept at a reasonable percentage. Unless bacteria and enzyme actions take place inside the intestinal tract, fish cannot digest cellulose, because they do not secrete cellulose. In some ways you can view fiber as a laxative (especially fiberous Kelp—a primary food source for Abalone & Sea Urchin.); too much will cause diarrhea. This in turn causes nutrient retention time to be shortened and therefore insufficient time for the intestine to absorb needed nutrients. Sometimes too much of a good thing, can be a bad thing.

[Melody]

Ah sales sites, gotta love 'em...lol. They've been called on their low vegie content many times, so they do what they can to defend it. Always research independently if you want the truth. There are a zillion studies out there about it.

Not only do we have herbivore, omnivore and carnivore right off the top, but each species can have special considerations like the female Goodeids. Then there's a huge variance in intestinal morphology amongst species, a wide range of bio-digestibility amongst them, etc.

This is the issue with most manufactured foods. They try to make it something it isn't. If they would just say "This food is the best in it's class" and why, nobody would have a problem with it.

They also don't have to worry about the vitamin A - heat processing zaps that right out of the finished processed product. As I mentioned before, an honest manufacturer will freely admit that, and a dog/cat food manufacturer admitted it to me without hesitation. He is smart enough to know that gaining the trust of pet owners is far more lucrative than misleading them.

Oh and fiber will actually treat loose stools - it adds bulk and absorbs moisture. Species that require more of it need it to accomodate a longer digestive tract, and to slow the passage of food down for uptake. Seaweed & algae does not have the cellulose binding issues of terrestrial plants either.

All of this is just basic facts, not opinion. Google heat impact on vitamins, there's the answer. Google fiber bulk stool, there's the answer. Google garlic (allicin) and the impact of heat on it, every source will tell you heat kills it. If we research and stick to the facts, we can quickly figure out fact from fiction.

As for Goodeids, the person who advises us that they need this special conisideration is one of the most highly respected Livebearer keepers and Goodeid breeders ever known, Mr. Jim Langhammer.:notworthy: I'll take that kind of education and experience over a sales site any day.

[Xiph]

No arguments here, I just remembered reading that back when I was doing a bunch of reading on flake / pellets foods (and ended up deciding I wanted didn't want to use them anymore).

[Melody]

I appreciate the post, it's a topic that I always find interesting and enraging at the same time.

I am now trying to make my way through Nutrient Requirements of Warmwater Fishes and Shellfishes. Not only do the above variations apply, but there can be huge differences between cold water fish and our tropical creatures. Most online studies cover cold water food fish so they aren't a whole lot of help, but I see a lot of people quoting them like they apply to all fish (which I've also done, I'm sure).

[jewels]

Interesting read Xiph. My idea of a heavily planted tank differs from most
-raised fish that are classified as herbivores to thrive, they must take in sufficient nutrients from their diet, and what takes place in the wild can simply not be duplicated in an aquarium setting.
:boohoo:

Yay !!! marketing:SLEEP:

There was recently a link to a Dutch research paper ( con not find it now ) that claimed 10 C was okay for Ameca's over winter. I have had them @ that temp for over a month now and feel that is to low for me. Perhaps a combination of diet and temp but after losing a second juvi I have bumped them up to 15 C. Anyone who has raised Ameca know they don't 'just die ' . Tough as nails those liitle guys.

During the same period I observed the Clouds kept their colour; although became quite inactive. @ 15 now they are all over the place . To see them you would think they were @ room temp.

My thoughts on 10 C

for Clouds - a touch cold
for Amecas - just to darn cold
for pond snails - no problem
for Vals and Rotala - not growing (under minimal light) ; but hanging in there

[CACAdmin]

Thanks for posting your observations, jewels. We learn so much when people share what they have observed &/or learned.

[blainep]

Agreed, good information.

[Melody]

:yes: Thank you, that should be added to their profiles. It's a shame how quickly we lose these tidbits.

[jewels]

My intentions behind this scenario was to be a 'dry run'. The Ameca threaten to take over any aquarium I put them in. ( by population and attitude). I was wishing to put them in a half Million gallon pond @ my parents place. I was okay with them taking their chances against the trout. Knowing now that the temps would do them in - I can not ethicly do it.

[jewels]

Older post ; but right on topic -

I was researching rainbowfish last night. An Australian website also mentioned 'other/alien' fish threatening local populations.

It claimed that white clouds were a serious threat because of their ability to survive temps down to 5 C!:err:

[fra1]

Hey guys my name is frank and i been in the hobby for 25 years, I have a Reef Tank, Koi pond and a cichlid tank. I am working on a personel fishtank site with pics and vids of my fish tanks and ponds if you want to check it out.http://http://fishtanksetups.com/

Any advise is welcomed, please check it out.

[Gobies et al]

I have had White Clouds survive 39*F (3.8*C) when a few got missed during the fall fish roundup. A found them a few days later and were fine. I don't think they could stay long stretches at that temp.

[jewels]

I had no idea.
Can't wrap my head around it.

I really like body temperature!!