Apistogramma sp. Inca Peru

[MDahms]

Well after seeing these fish sitting in my favorite local fish store for the past couple of months and stopping to watch them each time I visit I decided to bring a pair home. There are three or four others still at the store but I believe they are all males of different sizes.

I have had two 10 gallon tanks set up for quite some time with just plants and snails which have been feeding on algae and flake food to keep the beneficial bacteria population up. I picked up enough small gravel to cover the bottom of one of the tanks and to allow for some substrate rooted plants to compliment the large Anubias congensis and Singapore moss that are mounted to a piece of driftwood. I wanted an open area bordered by plants where the female's cave could be positioned so I choose some jungel Val. There is also a bunch of unidentified Hygrophylla and another unidentified stem plants that reminds me a little of Rotala sp. Goias. I used some presoaked Indian almond leaves to help bring the Ph down below neutral.

Here are the water parameters 24 hours after set up. I use separate API test kits for Ammonia and PH plus quick dip test strips. City tap water has a Ph of about 7.2 and right after set up the Ph was about 6.8 and has risen to 7.5 over 24 hours. I will continue to watch the Ph and if it increases I will have to consider that the gravel in to blame. There is one medium sized sponge filter and I plan on doing weekly 40-50% water changes.

Light 2 x 13 W daylight compact fluorescent.
Temp. 77-78 F
TDS 177 ppm but I do have an RO unit if needed.
GH 75 - soft
KH 100 ppm
Ph 7.5
Chlorine 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4015/4263027871_d53d1dc42c.jpg

Female

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4017/4263779004_b976863d37.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4024/4263029879_dc588b00ee.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2777/4263030327_e88583d883.jpg

Male

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4054/4263037811_d3eca5ba7c.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2712/4263789486_0c9ec7138a.jpg

I can't wait for the fish to get settled in. I have fed them once with a couple of live scud shrimp each and will try other live or frozen foods over the next few days. I have a small Rubbermaid tub that I keep under fluorescent lights and it is full of algae, duckweed and various other floating plants. There is a small population of daphnia, scud shrimp and other live foods in the tub that come in handy along with the regular baby brine shrimp.

This is my fist attempt at keeping Apistogramma so lots to learn, any guidance would be much appreciated. I have ordered the Aqualog books on Apistos so that I can better understand the genus. I have not been able to fully grasp the different groups within the genus and their different preferences in habitat or water conditions so hopefully the books will help. I have found and read a lot of information on the Web over the past few months but little specifics on this species. Hopefully I will be able to better ID the fish once I have the books. The fish were listed as Apistogramma Inca Peru so there they may be Apistogramma baenschi. I may have to consider a larger tank but was unsure of the needs of this species and how aggressive they are or if they tend to need multiple females to breed successfully; still lots to learn.

Mike

[GaryofMontreal]

Hi,
In the future, you'll want sand and not gravel, as they are eartheaters. pH is secondary, and your GH is good. Darkening the back would be good to increase their security, and if I were you, I'd crank the filter outflow for lots of oxygenation.
I suspect you may be in a bit of a race to spawn them before the size of the tank causes difficulty. I would never keep njisseni group Apistos in a 10 gallon - the footprint is very small and stability will be an issue.
You did right with just a pair.
It's a bit hard to ID them yet, but my lousy eyes seem to see a crest on the male, so it looks right.
Dithers are good idea - some sort of surface hugging small tetra would be a good investment, although their lives will be in danger in a ten.
The perfect tank for a pair of Apistos (to me) is a 30 inch base. 24 inch tanks will do for young pairs and pairs that get along very well. Bigger gives you a better behavioral repertoire and more safety for dithers and partners after fights.

[MDahms]

Thanks for the suggestions Gary. Do you think I could simply add a 1/2" cap of sand to the gravel to allow for sand grazing areas? I may have to consider a sponge filter with more surface area but for now I will turn the air up a bit. I wish I had covered the back of the tanks beofre I set them up was clearly not thinking at the time, hopefully I can figure something out that looks OK.

Would you say that Apistos appreciate more floor space than height in a tank? I was looking at pencil fish, hopefully dwarfs for dithers but wanted to see what species were available locally after reading that one is a confirmed egg/fry eater. After speaking with the fish room manager I am hoping to get some Rivulus from the store where I got the Apistos and was wondering if they might make appropriate dithers for a larger tank set up. I am unsure of the Rivulus species or if there is still any available so I will keep an eye out for other appropriate dithers. You make a good point in the need of more space for the fish and to keep the dithers safe so I will work on getting a larger tank set up on my other rack.


Mike

[CACAdmin]

Nice new acquisitions. They're obviously settling in if you can get pics of them. It's fun starting out with something new that you haven't kept before. A whole new learning experience too.

[GaryofMontreal]

Jay's right - new groups are fun. But I can also say old ones are - I'm restarting with Apistos after breeding dozens of species and having had them as my main group for years, and they're still challenging and entertaining. It's been 3-4 years since I had the group, but new discoveries got me curious.
An Apisto can be happy in a few inches of water. It's territory that matters. That means tank bottom space. I'm running a wee experiment with A barlowi, one of the more aggressive members of a generally peaceful group. My Geophagus have gradually checked out with time, and I have converted my six foot, 120 gallon tank to small fish. I put in seven barlowi - three pairs and an extra male. It's the first time I've had an apisto in a tank large enough that I could see what it thinks is a proper territory. They co-exist in three units (not pairs). There is a hotly contested central cave that is fought for eighteen inches each way. Males are less geographically territorial than females, by the way. The less desirable territories are at the extreme ends of the tank, which is 'fish-divided' into three zones. It tells me they claim about three feet of tank length, after which they don't care what happens.
That's a big territory for a small fish - and barlowi is related to baenschi even if it is much bigger. Mine are only half-grown, so the observations may change. It takes a year to really know what's happening in a fishtank.
Ideally, so far, if one partner displeases the other they only have to stay about 18 inches apart to survive. A 10 gallon is 20 inches total...
The key to successful 'dithering' is howling stupidity. You need a really dumb happy fish that scoots along the surface in full colour announcing that it's safe to do so. Pencils are perfect, as the substrate doesn't interest them.
Rivs are nervous and hang around the bottom a lot - terrible dithers, and probably doomed ones. Killies never work as dithers, except for lampeyes. I like pencils, hatchets and rummy noses. Cardinals look great but stay low in the water column - in a 30 okay, in a ten, not. They are also neat little predators.
You can put finer sand in on top, once you know if the gravel's leaching minerals. Too many minerals in the water and the egg, when it draws in water after being laid, will harden and trap its inhabitant.

[CACAdmin]

Great info, Gary. I may not be the one keeping these fish but it's fascinating to learn about them. Great reference if I ever decide to try my hand at them.

[MDahms]

Well it's decided pencil fish for dithers and the Rivulus will get their own 10 gallon tank. I checked the Ph this morning and it is stable but I will keep checking it before I decide to either remove the gravel or just add some sand. As long as I can keep these fish happy I am happy, any breeding that may take place will come in time if I am lucky.
Today I placed some walter worms on the flat surfaces of the leaves and a little while later the male was feeding with the female cautiously hunting in the background. I had wondered if the walter worms were too small but I think they will do nicley as an alternat food source if they are placed somewhere the fish can see them.

Gary thanks again for the guidence.

Mike

[GaryofMontreal]

I can go on about Apistos, but then, no one has to read me...

If you're testing water for leaching, it's better to concentrate on hardness. pH is not nearly as important, in my experience. One of the nicest Apistos is njisseni, from a pH under 5, with no measurable hardness in the wild. If you tried that at home, they'd die without a constant water change system. I could breed them here at pH 7 or higher, but never above about 50ppm GH. Acidity is a big feature of the natural environment, but I never had to go really acid on any of the high-bodied Apistos. The slender pertensis types are a different story.

[MDahms]

The other perameters were the same as well but I will continue to monitor the water for the next week. I was afraid that the Ph was climbing but you are right in the fact that a lower Ph just means more leaching from the substrate. I will keep an eye on things and if worst comes tp worst I will just have to use RO mixed with tap water to keep the GH is a good range.

I for one am willing to listen to anything you have to say concerning Apistogrammas.
I am curious what would you say are the best species or group within the genus to begin with?

Mike

[GaryofMontreal]

Apistogramma are a taxonomic lumper's delight - really different fish under a broad umbrella. I think that Apistogramma mcmasteri is a wonderful softwater fish, as a good first for the savannah/llanos forms of Venezuela/Colombia. A hongsloi and A veijita have been breeder selected for extra red and are beautiful, but I like the wild form mcmasteri. It's tough, but needs soft water to breed.
A njisseni is a beauty that still comes from the wild, unselected, and is not very aggressive.
Both aggassizii and biteniatum are good slender blackwater fish from Brazil - stunning little fish when they arrive in stores, but up to 12cm as adults.
All the eunotus (high bodied, largely ugly) types are easy to keep and breed - of course - they have no colour.
Borellii may be the easiest - peaceful, cold tolerant and accepting of almost all soft to medium hard water - tiny, non aggressive and very very beautiful.
I dislike the really slender blackwater Apistos, all are difficult, but I just don't like their looks.
Belowwater in Montreal has been getting really interesting cacatuoides/njisseni group (Barlowi group?) things from the interior of Colombia. They are not easy to keep, but if you can manage eventual size and bad attitude, they are fun to observe.
Along with borellii, cacatuoides is a favourite. The blue ones aren't that nice, but the wild yellows are really fun. As a snobby wild-type fishkeeper, I am not attracted to the double red and triple red domestic strains - they are a bit much, although impressive.
There are also dozens of undescribed species.
here's an old, cheap camera shot of a wild-caught cacatuoides from the yellow types:
1624
His orange dorsal extensions were just starting.
Your Incas are not an easy start-up fish, but easy is often what we make of it - if you like them then the extra work and attention aren't that hard. I hope you can breed them, as Apistogramma broodcare is quite the show.
The groupings are neat. Look at your Incas (or if you aren't Mike, at his photos), then look at the cacatuoides and now have a gawk at the barlowi photos in the next message.

[GaryofMontreal]

Here's a barlowi female guarding eggs last night, and some shots of the breeding male and a floozy he's running around with while the female he was courting is watching their eggs.1625

1626

1627
Right after the last photo, the female veered too close to the cave door and took quite a bop on the snout for her pains.
You can see the connection to cacatuoides, as well as to baenschi there, eh?

[bae3]

Gary, I'm willing to read anything you write about apistos, killies, whatever. I remember all the great stuff you contributed to the apistogramma list and your magazine articles. The nick 'frauels' was you, right?

[GaryofMontreal]

Yup. I've mutated into a livebearer keeper, but these new Apisto forms really have my attention again.

[MDahms]

Nice fish and yes I definitely see a resemblance to my fish. Apistogramma borellii was my first choice when I made the decision to try Apistos, such a beautiful fish. I may still see if I can get a pair of borellii. Apistogramma cacatuoides has not been as attractive to me but the wild caught yellow you had was beautiful. There are some Apisto viejita at the store but I don't think there is a pair. The colour of those fish is very dark all over but mayeb that is just because they are nervous in the tank.

Seeing those little Apisto Inca's sitting in the tank week after week convinced me that they would be much better off in a nice planted tank. Of course they had to be one of the species best not for beginners. I will be sure to pay close attention to these fish.

Mike

[blainep]

When are you going to start charging admission to that fishroom ?

Kidding of course.

Keep posting those pictures, I'm really enjoying the them !

[GaryofMontreal]

Charge for fishroom visits? Thanks, but I'm more likely to be charged with lunacy. My daughters bring their friends over, and they all think I'm a little crazy for it. At least the kids seem to like me enough that they appeared worried about me.
From the road, every Apisto looks the same. Most wild-type livebearers look the same. So why does this lunatic have a room full of the same fish over and over again? Why does this lunatic have fish?
I'm jealous when I read of the calgary club doing fishroom tours. I love seeing other aquarists' fishkeeping obsessions. Our clubs here are really a mess - improving, but not able to put together things like that.

[MDahms]

Well I must be doing something right because tonight I noticed that both fish were showing much more intense colour and I observed the female doing the tail wag courtship dance. The male has the most beautiful blue on his sides and a blue dorsal fin tipped in yellow while the female is showing a much more yellow body colour and more intense black markings. Yesterday I did notice the pair go into the coconut cave together which was something I had never noticed before but the change in colour today is very promising.

Two weeks ago I picked up four Nannostomus eques or brown pencil fish. These fish have been in quarantine in identical water conditions in their own 10 gallon tank and I was planning on introducing them to the Apisto tank soon. Ideally I was aiming for setting up a 20 gallon tank for the fish over the weekend but I am now going out of town so it will have to wait. I am wondering if I should put the dithers into the 10 gallon Apisto tank before I leave just in case the pair spawns and the female needs something to distract her from the male? I am really happy that I decided on the pencil fish because they are so interesting, they even change colour and can be either laterally striped or with wide broken vertical bars or spots on a light background.

Time to get the 20 gallon and a big bag of sand to get these fish set up properly. Any other comments or guidance would be most appreciated. I did pick up the two Aqualog books and the updates on Apistogramma and other South American dwarf Cichlids. I have yet to read the books but did look at the photos. I have already decided that if I add any more tanks I will start with Apisto borellii and macmasteri, these Apistos are truly awesome little fish and equally addictive. :yes:

Mike

[MDahms]

Well no eggs yet but the courtship continues. Yesterday the pair was spending time in the cave but the female does not stand guard so they must not have spawned yet.

Mike

[CACAdmin]

They may have been inspecting the cave to see if she approves of it. :wink: :laugh:

[MDahms]

For the last couple of days the female has been keeping the male in the upper portion of that tank where he lurked in the plants. During feedings the female was much more aggressive and often chased the male away from the food she was interested in. Tonight I finally noticed why the females behavior had changed, she was accompanied by a school of fry. :waycool:

Now I had really better finish setting up the 20 gallon. For now the fry are grazing on the Indian almond leaves and a few river rocks that are in the tank. I added some micro worms in hopes that they will begin taking live foods.

Any suggestions for an Apisto newbie? I plan on keeping up the regular water changes but with extra care. I have micro worms and can hatch some baby brine shrimp. The parents eat mostly San Fransisco Bay frozen Chichlid Delight which I break up and feed using a dropper and occasional Walter worms or micro worms.

I will try and get some updated photos and possibly some video of the fish.

Mike

[CACAdmin]

I'll leave any advice to the apisto folks around here but just wanted to say congrats on the fry! :thumbup: