[24 foot long Tank] Could be getting the best part time gig ever but I need advice!

[Noctame]

So, Monsterfishkeepers.com is another forum I read.

So, this guy msgs me about his tank (he has a high class office with a conference room and this tank runs along three walls of it) that is 3 feet in depth (a see through wall) with three connected 8 foot spans. 24 feet by 3 feet by 4 feet deep. 180 gallon sump.

1100 Gallons. I could die. Who the **** needs MTS when this could be my first Aquarium project?!

So, He needs a hobbyist or two who are interested in a part time job doing maintenance.

So I met this guy (and his tank) today and WOWza. I'm the only person whose come to see the tank! Crazy! it could EASILY fit 6 of me in it xP

My questions. He wants me to think about what I think would be a fair 'wage' for my work.

We're going to be stripping the tank bare (rocks out, walls washed and dried) adding a tank safe melamine bottom with a slate pattern, adding fake plants to the middle 8 foot section, adding rock piles 1/2 high to each far end running towards the planted part, and then adding fish.

We agreed the tank should be mostly Africans, with a school of 50-100 Silver Hatchets as possible upper tank swimmers.

His goals are:


African based cichlids in the rock work that will breed but not cross breed. He's purchased 15 yellow labs to start.
Colour!
Keeping the tank low maintenance (he's axed my dreams of real plants :P he doesn't want to deal with floaters being ripped out of the two huge pieces of driftwood or rock piles)
I need suggestions for other Cichlid species or dither fish(who will form schools at different levels of the tank and move quite a bit), the only fish staying from his original stock is a full grown demasoni - he's going to need suggestions for replacements for his plecos. He seemed interested in some of the fancy types ( i just KNOW there's people in here who can help) and I suggested using a species that perhaps like crowds of its own kind (all that tank to keep clean right?) Something that can handle being around africans in a rockpile/fake plant environment with driftwood integrated into the rockpiles (or making caves if needed).

And lastly but somewhat importantly. What kind of wage do you think I should consider that'll be more attractive than a private company would charge him, but fair to me?

[GaryofMontreal]

Yellow labs are a limiting Malawi, as they are not among the most aggressive. I would go with the Labs and a colony of Aulonacara (peacocks). Some big blue moori might be nice, with Synodontis catfish from the lake. There are a lot of moderately aggressive Mbuna you could use, although it will take some research. It's a big tank.
Hatchets would be an error, as they would be slaughtered even if they aren't affected by the water.They are Amazon fish - from soft water. Malawis are hard water fish - not a good match.
It's hard to purchase any geographically appropriate dither fish, as African Lakes schoolers aren't popular. Some use rainbows, although the presentation becomes very fake with Australasian fish added. Malawis don't need dithers as they have each other in a well set up tank. The peacocks are good out in the open water.
I have no idea what I'd charge.
And be careful cleaning it if it's acrylic!

[Noctame]

3/4 inch glass. And he liked the idea of hatchet even though I mentioned Lamp Eye Killis and Cynotipalia Blue Flash. And woah, I'm not scratching the biggest glass tank in ontario - I'm already broke enough :P

He's trying to figure out a mix of about 6 species that will be able to breed.

I still wish he'd let me put real plants instead of fake :P

[Noctame]

I am thinking the following.

The owner has 15 Yellow Lab Juvies for rock work.

To buy? I'm not sure of quantities but if we're able to pick and choose male/female ratio what are your thoughts?
12 x P. Acei (Local Breeder, hopefully a colony or two)
12 x Peacock (Local Breeder, hopefully a colony or two)
6 x Upside Down Cats Synodontis Eupterus (so they can school if they wanna) (Local Breeder, hopefully a colony)

Maybe 6 x Kribensis (Local Breeder, since they is so much rock work)? Maybe no room?

He wanted 50-100 small ish tetras or hatchets for flash and colour. I think he's better off with Lampeye Killies of Blue Flash Cynotilapia (non jumbo). But blech! I need something that will suit that 'want' of his :)

[GaryofMontreal]

It is going to be hard. Your Malawi choices sound great - good colour spectrum and all. But behavior? Standard lampeyes will last a day or two in tough neighbourhood like that. They are high current moderately softwater fish. The lampeyes from Lake Tanganyika are delicate and expensive. The Malawi lampeyes would never go near an Mbuna habitat and are fishes of the margins of the habitat. They are small and not very colourful.
The standard aquarium lampeye, Poropanchax normanni, is tiny and from soft water. Kribs are African, but Africa is big. Malawi is east Africa - a deep alkaline lake. Kribs are softwater fish from West African rivers - night and day. I housed a pair of kribs with Labidochromis once when I was learning. They were slaughtered by the tougher lake fish. Mbuna live by crowding and kribs carve unshared territory. They can't communicate.
Upside down cats are also riverine species - lakes and lake fish don't work well with them. You'd need to look for a lake Synodontis that wasn't too predatory.
You can't have many tetras with Malawis. First off, it's a softwater family - secondly, they'll get whacked. Ditto for most barbs, though I successfully kept Rosey barbs with malawis at one point. Anyone think a big school of tiger barbs might work?
A malawi cichlid tankmate must be big and loud in personality to survive the potential beating. I hate keeping malawis, as IMHO, they must be kept with fish from their own lake or nothing. Their habitat is so extreme and specialized and they have adapted such a rough lifestyle that they force you into a biotope aquarium.
Even if he wanted plants, the only plant I could keep with my herbivorous malawis was java fern. Even Bolbitis and Anubias suffered.

[bae3]

A lot depends on whether you really want to do a Lake Malawi biotope or just have a lot of colorful fish. Toronto water is fine for most fish, regardless of origin, except for ones that require really soft water.

24 feet is an astounding length, and would be big enough for even Malawi mbuna to show a lot of interesting behaviour they have no opportunity to display in a reasonable size tank. For example, some mbuna defend a rocky territory very fiercely -- these are their algae gardens -- but leave their territories for a few hours a day to stake out a tiny mating territory in a sandy area, where the females stroll about viewing the possibilities and spawning a few eggs with each male they like the looks of.

Ideally, you could have a number of rock piles each colonized by a different species. Really, few people have experience with tanks big enough for these fish to show their many complex natural behaviours. You'd have to read books that describe their behaviour in the lake.

There are a lot of other Lake Malawi cichlids, including some unusual predators, like Dimidiochromis compressiceps, which lurks in Vallisneria beds, head down, flatter than a pancake from side to side, blending in with the leaves and surface reflections, and Nimbochromis livingstoni, a mottled brown fish with patches of fuzzy white -- it lies down on its side in a conspicuous place, looking dead and rotting, and when smaller fish come over to nibble, it nabs them. How cool, using itself as bait, eh?

Another possibility is adding some of the hardier Lake Tanganyika fish. Personally, I'm very fond of Julidochromis spp., and cichlids of the 'brichardi' group are not only beautiful in form, but have very interesting social behaviour -- they form colonies in rock piles of fish of all ages, a pair's older fry protecting their younger siblings.

Then there are Tropheus, with several species and innumerable localities with different colors and patterns, mostly black with patches of white, yellow, blue, orange or red, and their relatives in Petrochromis and Simochromis. Tropheus are rather expensive and not so easy to keep, however.

But if this guy wants color, mbuna are good. Yellow labs are great -- both sexes are equally colorful. P.acei are also on the less aggressive side, as are Cynotilapia afra and Iodotropheus sprengeri, the 'rusty cichlid'. The important thing to reduce crossbreeding is to avoid mixing closely related species, and species that have the same colors for either sex. Peacocks are good, but only the males are colorful. Blue dolphins are cool, and are more open water.

If he wants schooling colorful fish, rainbows work, despite being aliens in a Lake Malawi biotope. Large colorful mongrelized livebearers like platies, swordtails and mollies are equally alien, but colorful and active. Some of the larger barbs could work too -- tinfoil barbs have plenty of 'flash'.

Btw, you are thinking of Cyprichromis spp not Cynotilapia for active open water cichlids. Cyprichromis are from Lake Tanganyika, while Cynotilapia spp are mbuna.

Two people you should talk to are Mike at Finatics in Scarborough, and Jason at Aquatic Designs in Aurora. These two men know pretty nearly everything about keeping and breeding rift lake fish and can not only give you advice but Mike buys a lot of his fish from local breeders and can help you find good stock. Mike does aquarium maintenance, so he might have some idea of what your time is worth.

(And I wonder how long the meetings in this conference room are going to drag on for if everybody keeps getting distracted, watching the fish!)

[Noctame]

Thank you Bae! I was thinking Cyprichromis. And yes, although he doesn't want to go outside the African Rift Lake box, I'm trying to hold something 'ecotopey' together.

And Aye, I'm going to be making a trip down to see Mike at Finatics. He has spectacular stock and he knows his stuff. This guy is very business oriented and I want to give him a proper proposal typed up and everything.

He doesn't want predators or 'common' species in his tank I already asked if he'd consider Princess of Burundi. Rainbows may be a good option over tinfoil barbs as they don't get huge.

My intention despite his dislike of real plants is to offer a partial additive proposal where I could suggest plants that won't in his words 'gunk up his intakes' and won't be destroyed. And Java Fern is the method I'm thinking of. I know they reproduce by splotting off babies from their leaves, But I really don't think a conference room should have fake plants COMPLETELY. If you're going to do a showstopping display....and the java ferns not only can survive and inprove water quality, why not?

Ofc the arrogant monster tank owner said "But 1100 gallons doesn't need plants for water quality, it has a 180 sump!" and I was all >.>......

I'm going to make it clear to him that he's going to need to train me with the technical aspects of his system due to how many years I've been out of it, and the % of my theoretical knowledge.

Questions for Mike:

Stock
Do you think I could get away with putting Peacocks, P. Acei and Rusties together?
What species ratio?
Would a Cyprichromis School be comfortable with the three species above?
School fishes: what species and how many for dramatic activity?
I'm thinking rainbows, how inexpensive can I get the hardy ones you'd suggest?
Pleco replacements? What species and how many?
The man is also considering having ghost shrimp in his tank. Is he as nuts as I think he is? I don't think they'd survive with labs nevermind whatever schooling fish xP

Service
Should I charge a flat trip charge, and an hourly wage?
What should I charge for helping him strip the tank down and rescaping?
Maintenance charge a flat rate too?

Questions for http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/ (http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/)

Java Fern types and how to make them even easier to manage?
Other suggestions despite anti-plant man?

Fancy Pleco/Cory fanatics:

Is there a fancy type that can survive the agression of Cichlids? What would I work into the tank to help it survive?

[bae3]

My intention despite his dislike of real plants is to offer a partial additive proposal where I could suggest plants that won't in his words 'gunk up his intakes' and won't be destroyed. And Java Fern is the method I'm thinking of. I know they reproduce by splotting off babies from their leaves, But I really don't think a conference room should have fake plants COMPLETELY. If you're going to do a showstopping display....and the java ferns not only can survive and inprove water quality, why not?


You do have a problem of getting adequate light all the way down to the bottom of a 4 foot deep tank, which is difficult. You could go for floating plants, or emersed ones, depending on light. If there's plenty of light, water hyacinth, water lettuce, water lilies.... if not, Amazon frogbit, duckweed... Hornwort is excellent for water quality and even herbivorous mbuna don't like to eat it much. It floats up there near the surface where the light is, and sucks up nitrogen like a sponge. You can just grab handfuls out sporadically.

Something that grows just a bit faster than the fish can eat it would be a win. Najas might do it, ditto duckweed.

Screening intakes isn't a big deal.

While Java fern looks good, and you can attach it up near the top, it doesn't grow all that fast, so doesn't affect water quality much. Java moss and other mosses, attached to rocks near the lights look good, and aren't very tasty to most fish.


School fishes: what species and how many for dramatic activity?
I'm thinking rainbows, how inexpensive can I get the hardy ones you'd suggest?
The man is also considering having ghost shrimp in his tank. Is he as nuts as I think he is? I don't think they'd survive with labs nevermind whatever schooling fish xP
I still like the idea of livebearers. As for rainbows, they are getting less expensive for an interesting reason. In Florida, as in many places, you get a big break on your property taxes if you're technically a farmer. So some of the big fish farmers have made deals with small property owners to stock their ponds with rainbow fish and buy the results back, providing enough farm income for these people to get the tax break. Rainbow fish are ideal because the fry need a lot of tiny food, green water scale, to get started, and they like the hard Florida ground water, and since many are subtropical, they have no problems with the climate. The ponds need minimal effort on the part of the property owner, since they generate most of the food the fish need naturally.

As for ghost shrimp, they will be a tasty treat when they molt, if not before.


Fancy Pleco/Cory fanatics:
Is there a fancy type that can survive the agression of Cichlids? What would I work into the tank to help it survive?I don't qualify as either, but the common bushynose Ancistrus is the guppy of the pleco world. These guys are small, but they breed like crazy, and seem very open-minded about water conditions. They're largely nocturnal, and can squeeze into small rock crevices. Many people keep them with rift lake cichlids.

I wouldn't go for cories in such a tank, but a flock of Synodontis petricola or related spp would look great and probably breed, too. S.multipunctatus is the 'cuckoo catfish' and exploits mouthbrooders to brood their fry. Both spp are native to Lake Tanganyika. They are striking looking and active, but like most catfish tend to be nocturnal. They will come out and swarm around if they smell food, however.

Another possibility is clown loaches. A swarm of these guys is wonderful to watch -- they always seem to be playing together. They are assertive enough to be kept with mbuna, I think, but you might want more opinions on that.

[Noctame]

Labidochromis caeruleus 5"
Pseudotropheus Demasoni (Blue/Black) Dwarf 2.5"
Pseudotropheus Acei 6"
Aulonocara Peacock 6"
Iodotropheus sprengerae (Rusty) Dwarf 4"

I believe will be my rock work species. Lots of caves indeed. But the school or rainbows I am still googling madly over. Petricola catfish may be the way to go, I really really don't want synodontic multis messing with the mouthbrooders. Trying to get it set up so everybody can have babies :P

Calling Mike @ Finatics tomorrow, and awaiting call from aquatic plant place in the states about ideas for the scape.

Over and out for the day!

[tiga]

The problem with most mbuna is that they will interbreed, there is definitly less of a chance with the size of the tank. also the rusties are prety plain looking and depending on the type of P Acei and Pecock you are looking at the demesoni could view them as rivals all being blue fish and demesoni will kill everything that looks like them.

As for plants you are limited to java firn and anubus because africans will eat everything else.

Botom dwellers good choices would be the catfish from Tanganyika like Synodontis lucipinnis. definitly a family to look at . Plecos are not needed as the mbuna eat algea as long as you can clean the glass and get lots of flow it will look great

[Noctame]

I think he'd prefer a herbivore or a detritus handling bottom feeder that would leave the fry alone. He interested in fancy looking ones, but I think Synodontis has plenty of interested looking species if I do my research right. I worry about Lucipinnis only because it looks so much like Multipunctatus.

[bvlester]

get him togo salt water in that tank it would be incredible.
Bill

[Noctame]

Wow! Check this out @_@

I would stay away from the upside down cats. If you want cats get syn that gets a little larger... eurptus perhaps.

I know at cheap is $1 a gallon for cleaning and working on a tank.... that is a day.Thanks for the advice! A gentleman at PJs Pet Centre told me minimum $50 a trip for a simple gravel vac and algae scrape. He said I have to consider how much time it would take to do the waterchanges and come up with an hourly charge too.

I really don't want this guy to take advantage of me because I'm young, and have only a little experience. Could I use a flat rate chip charge, and if I'm doing a waterchange, charge him $1 per gallon changed out? So 25% water change would be 250 ish gallons at a buck a pop? Or would I seem gouging.

That might seem like a lot to you, but remember how much it would cost. I cleaned two tanks that were a total of 300 gallons for 300 dollars, and I was cheaper than the local guys here in town. They charge 4 a gallon, plus materials. So charge what you think is fair, but remember if things go wrong you are the one who gets the blame, and should be paid as such. I would talk to him about price. Ask him what you he thinks is fair. Explain that you have check around and what you are willing to charge is far less than anyone else, and work out something comfortable with you.

A buck a gallon. Woah.

[bvlester]

Talk him into a reef tank he would realy like it after it grow in a bit like 12 months.

wow what a tank that would make.

Bill

[GaryofMontreal]

If he didn't already have the Labidochromis, a South American tank would have been great. Picture a school of a couple of hundred cardinals, black neons, and other tetras over shoals of corys and groups of non-predatory cichlids in a tank that size. Ah well, there's always the lottery.

[Noctame]

Yeah. And he doesn't like 'common cichlids' like Kribs, else I would've convinced him to go with a dozen pairs of those :P. Just imagine how awesome it'd be to watch a krib colony interact >.< HECK, he won't let me set up a shelly colony either and THAT would've been mouth wateringly AWESOME.

A massive pile of shells with dozens upon dozens of multifasciatus? Or Brichardi for that matter?

>.<

[Namor]

Great responses everyone! :notworthy:

Noctame,
Sweet gig! :thumbup: Are you able to photograph the process?
{crossing fingers}

[Noctame]

The gig's not quite in the bag - but picture blogging the tear down and re-scape will DEFINITELY be in the negotiation process. I'm not getting that messy without a pat on the back from the internetz :P

[Mrs.JP]

I'm not going to be any help here. But if it was mine LOL It would be a BIG tank for some Big fish:
schools of iridescent sharks
clown loaches,
bala sharks
redtail catfish
black sharks
lg plecos(the bigger they gets the cooler they look)
or give myself a pat on the back and turn it into a rescue tank for these kind of fish. I know they may not all work together but you get the idea. I've always dreamt of an aquarium wall in my dream house.
I really hope this guy dosen't mind you sharing the progress of this tank it sounds amazing and I bet we all could learn from it. Good luck.