Anyone ship to the US?

[billyjoseph]

I'm looking for anyone who is able to ship to the United States... there are few fish that I see available in Canada that are unheard of here in the states, but most people won't ship here. Has anyone had any luck? What I would like to do is buy and send the money to the seller have them ship to a CA address then that person could ship directly to me. Does anyone do this?

[GaryofMontreal]

You would face a fine of several hundred dollars from US Fish and Wildlife, who work with your Homeland Security on this. If you had a US govt importing permit (a couple of hundred bucks), you could pick fish up for shipping plus a $55 inspection fee, as long as you were willing to go to a designated border crossing or airport where a fish and wildlife agent was based so he/she could inspect the fish.
I was told by a US border agent, when I asked if I could bring a few killies to a US friend, that if a fish was not already in the USA, it was not worth owning.
If you live beside a border entry point for US F&W or an airport with an agent on place, and if you have the permits, you can have the fish shipped from outside of the US, but they don't make it easy for you.
Into Canada, it's fairly easy, but it seems one way, legally.

[Melody]

Agreed, and to complicate matters, each State has it's own laws on top of the federal laws. Shipments can also be held up at the border for weeks.

I quite honestly don't know of any fish we have here that aren't already in the US. Maybe we could help you find them locally?

[billyjoseph]

Oh really? When did those laws go into place? I used to order bettas from BC Bettas frequently years ago. I also get livebearers from the UK without a problem and I dont have an importing permit. The fish im looking for are X. Montezumae "Rascon, and Rust '98", Girardinus microdactylus, and the X. Helleri "Rio Atapa swords. I'm a member of the ALA and very good friends with the chairman and neither he has these.

[GaryofMontreal]

I've had to go through it all for the AKA for a convention, and met with fish and wildlife to bring maybe 20 pairs of killies through. There's one legal point of entry between the Atlantic coast and Buffalo. And that's by appointment.
I also met with Homeland Security two years ago to see what I could do legally. I had the specific laws at one point, but I don't think I bothered keeping them. I gave up.
I regularly brought fish into the USA to mail them until about five years ago. It was about then that it tightened up, and I gave up. It's unfortunate. It used to be so easy, and so pleasant. I distributed a few species in the US, as I'm only 45 minutes from the border. I used to scoot into NY State about two or three times a summer to do mailings.
To bring my Cuban exported microdactylus across? Whew. That might be fun. To my knowledge, they aren't in the US, but my montezumae and helleri Otapa are of US origin.

[billyjoseph]

Really? I wonder why that is. Laws are more strict for Mexico and Canada its odd when I can get fish shipped the UK with no problem. Theres used to be an abundance of those Montezumae but their all gone here only the Rio Tamasopo strain is strong. I would love to get my hands on some of the fish you all have.

[GaryofMontreal]

They told me it was the same law from any source, but again, since I don't live in the US, the restrictions don't directly affect me enough for me to go digging. It may be as simple as luck that has worked for you so far. If I were you, I'd look into it. It's a weird little thing to bother having regulations on, as the tropical fish traffic from hobbyists must be so tiny that it would hardly matter, but there you have it.
We used to get half a dozen Vermonters or upstate New Yorkers at all our aquarium club meetings before this was enforced, but now we no longer see them because they can't bring fish back and the auction temptation is too cruel. It's a shame.

[OldMan]

I think you will find that a shipment from Malaya, for example, is going through a trans-shipper BillyJoseph. That trans-shipper is responsible for the license requirements, etc. and charges a fee for the service. Although you don't pay huge amounts for the inspection, that is because they put together a big order and ship them in a single shipment. If you read the fine print on Aquabid or E-bay, you will see that the vendors will even inform you that it is strictly your personal problem if you import fish without the needed licenses and there are any repercussions. They don't put it quite in those words but that is the meaning behind what they do say.

[Melody]

They've definitly cracked down on it, it's next to impossible to do legally and not worth the risk to do illegally. Sometimes things get through undetected. I've found Customs and their regulators to be very helpful when I've contacted them, so you could always give them a call.

Canada isn't highly regulated due to our climate, although they're working on it for no logical reason I can fathom. Naturally, the tropical climates in the US have inspired tougher regulations, as the awareness of damage done by invasive species has increased.

Drop Joel a line and put an ad in The Trader, if you haven't tried that. There is still a good number of breeders who don't do computers, so include a snail mail address and phone number. Maybe Allen will score some at the convention this weekend. :Smile: I know I heard an American talking about their colony of Rusty's Monty collection recently, but I can't remember who... I'll let you know if it comes to me. Rick has Monty's (Platy-Plus), but I don't know which population it is. Gary may be right on Microdactylus, I don't recall anyone mentioning those. The wild Helleri should only be a matter of time, collecting wild locations of Helleri is the latest Swordtail passion, it seems.

I wish we could still drive them across the border so I could give them to US hobby visitors. They've always been so good to me, it would be nice to send them home with something interesting to distribute.:yes:

[billyjoseph]

Thanks for the responses- Melody do you mean that Joel Healy has those Montys? Or a different Joel? Also do you mean because I dont have that license if I get caught importing fish from the UK I can get in trouble? I know of a transhipper in Denver, CO she mainly deals with guppies but I used to know her when I lived there, would Canada shipments be able to go through her promptly? She mainly deals with guppies/bettas from Asia.

[Melody]

Thanks for the responses- Melody do you mean that Joel Healy has those Montys? Or a different Joel? Also do you mean because I dont have that license if I get caught importing fish from the UK I can get in trouble? I know of a transhipper in Denver, CO she mainly deals with guppies but I used to know her when I lived there, would Canada shipments be able to go through her promptly? She mainly deals with guppies/bettas from Asia.

Joel Healy is the ALA Trader Editor, so he'd be your contact for that.

I don't know what would happen if you were the receiver, but the shipper could be fined or with some species, jailed. If nothing else, there would be a lifetime black mark on their file at the border.

Transhippers usually receive the fish, keep them for a few days to rest and feed them, then reship. Using one wouldn't avoid border delays. Their services are usually used to consolidate shipping costs and allow overseas breeders to ship larger boxes via airline. Sometimes they will also obtain the proper licenses to receive legally, but not always. Generally, she would charge you the cost of shipping to her, plus $3/fish (or whatever her rates are) for their processing and interim care, plus shipping from her to you.

I can't speak for other breeders, but I personally would need to see the paperwork and would verify it before shipping. As much as I'd love to help a fellow hobbyist, I'm not going to jail for it :laugh: .

[GaryofMontreal]

All right, I like solutions as they develop!
I don't know if this is internet lore, urban legend or whatever, but I have heard of US killie hobbyists being called and asked if they are expecting a fish shipment from outside of the country. If they answer 'yes', they have apparently not received the fish, but a couple of hundred bucks worth of fines.
The sender, if Canadian, wouldn't be fined, but they would be advised to give themselves lots and lots of time if they ever crossed the border to visit the USA. They'd best make certain they are wearing clean underwear.
Your friend must have the permits, worth a couple of hundred bucks. The port of entry for inspection is the next issue, but she would know that already from her business. Figure she'd pay $55 per inspection, her other costs, plus shipping which would be airport to airport since this would not be permitted by mail. It's an expensive proposition - lots of time for little return (permits to be filled, drives to airports, arrangements with airlines) for the shipper and lots of time and cash for the receiver.
I've only done it once, to get a shipment to a convention (the AKA). I would estimate that it took four hours to deal with permits, inspection, and bureaucracy. It's worth it to help the hobby if there are a lot of fish involved, but not to sell a few pairs.
Ten years ago I would have scooted across the border, declared the fish with no duty and mailed them to you from Rouses Point NY, where the nice lady at the counter knew me to say hello. Ah well.

[GaryofMontreal]

Billy - I tried to send you some info on sources my fish came from, but I can't as you've blocked that feature. Can you send me a private message or e-mail through the site?

[billyjoseph]

Well they only charge $12 to ship from the UK but they also have sold many fish online so i figure they have that license its from the BLA.

Old man- feel free to e-mail me billydominguez2006@yahoo.com

[davefrombc]

There is some visiting back and forth between members orf the Vancouver Aquatic Hobbyist Club and the Greater Seattle Aquarium Society.
Our auctioneer the last two years was up from Seattle and bought some fish to take home .
Maybe try contacting the GSAS and see what rules they run into bringing in fish from B.C.
Here is the GSAS website http://www.gsas.org/

[Melody]

Gary, it depends on if the fish is banned for transport or ownership in that State or not. If a fish is banned and I import it, I'm in BIG trouble. That's the biggest issue I have, trying to figure out Fed laws and State laws, requirements, etc. Shipping to the US is one big ball of red tape, if it can be done at all.

If there's a way to drive them across openly and legally, I can send species home with the next ALA visitor, which would be in June if all goes well. He (or whomever visits me next) could breed and distribute them. He is, however, travelling on so he'd have to be coming through here on the way back. Charles Clapsaddle is in Seattle quite often and he certainly has the facilities to breed and distribute as well, but he was in Canada a few weeks ago so I don't know when he intends to visit again.

I've even turned down the University of Hawaii, who can legally receive specimens for research, that's how bad it is. Everything is banned in tropical climates it seems, but the others might not be as bad.

[GaryofMontreal]

Homeland Security's rep told me all fish imports are classed as commercial, and that all needed commercial Fish and Wildlife permits. It is not a question of state by state, but a weird micro-trade issue. I can only go by what the US government rep stationed at our international airport (as well as the fish and wildlife guy at the border) told me - the same story from both. Any fish brought into the USA to stay in the USA without a commercial importation permit is deemed smuggling and subject to penalties.
The F&W guy whose turf is south of me is a very keen man. It is possible that border guards further west may not have received the direct training the ones here have, and they may react to small imports of fish in a more reasonable manner. Often the nastiest thing about an unwelcome law is its enforcement.

[Melody]

What I mean is the person exporting can still get into trouble, as you had mentioned they probably wouldn't. If the fish is outright banned in a state and I try to export to it, I'm in deep fishpoo. If it's just a matter of fed reg's, I may only get my fingers slapped.

What I'm trying to figure out otherwise, is how someone is driving fish across the border into the US. It could very well be that they're waved through for whatever reason. I agree that federal regulation would apply anywhere. I think I'd like to hear from the Seattle gentleman to see how that transpired.

[OldMan]

Our local fish shop gave a lecture during a recent club meeting, I belong to a US club, about the processes that they must go through to receive fish from a foreign source. It seems that thjey must pay for an inspection of each shipment of fish, in addition to having a license to import the fish in the first place. The LFS representative went so far as to point out that if an air shipment arrives outside normal working hours for those same inspectors, the LFS would also be subjected to added fees to cover the overtime payment for the inspector to work outside their normal work hours. It seems that the simple idea of paying a flat fee for an inspection is too simple for the US government when it comes to import inspections.
My own view of this mess is simple to state. I consider the whole mess as a way to ensure that the local, inside the US, fish produceers enjoy a distinct advantage in dealing with my local fish shop. Protectionist measures in the US are sometimes more subtle than the "Buy Canadian" campaigns but are no less effective at reducing competition when times are tough for the locals.

[Melody]

We don't do 'buy Canadian'. There was only talk of a retaliation to the 'Buy American' policies. We encourage it, but we don't make it law as the US is doing.

The US also slaps Canadian merchants with $150/shipment fees when they buy from US fish wholesalers - figure that out? Discouraging other countries from buying US?

Governments anywhere are logic-challenged overall.

[OldMan]

It has been quite a while since I lived in Canada and saw the Buy Canadian campaigns Mel. I simply assumed that such things continued to this day. As you say, governments seldom follow anything that might be described by a sane person as logic. I consider myself sane, at least as much as the next guy, and find the provincial attitudes of governments to be anything but logical. When you say to the place next door, be it a country, a State or a province, that you want to trade only internally, you are as much as saying "We find competing with you too hard to continue on an equitable basis". Where does that leave the other party but to embrace a retaliatory approach where they force their competitor to jump through hoops to continue to trade at all. If I was a commercial enterprise, with a primarily profit motive, my first priority would be to trade where I could do so without extra expenses. If a particular border, internal or external, made trade more difficult, read that as expensive, I would avoid that particular trade. Where does that leave the consumer though? It leaves them looking at a local economy with a death grip on prices for their products because "foreign" entities cannot begin to compete. Carried to its logical extreme, let's hope it is not the real world very often, the local consumer must treat the local provider's prices as unavoidable. As a shareholder in the local company, I might possibly find that competitive advantage as good, but in the long term, my company would fail to learn how to compete in the global market, which means they are destined to remain very small or fail completely.
My own view, although I have no formal training in economics, is that any barrier to truly free trade means my own investments in commercial enterprises are doomed to fail. The businesses will not learn to compete until their "competition" has pulled so far ahead in terms of how they do business, that my own investment ends up forfeited.

[Melody]

I'll spare the original poster anymore politics :laugh: .

So I guess the only question I personally still have, is how is that auction guy driving fish across? :Think: Dave - you go find out, I'll wait here. :wink:

[GaryofMontreal]

I think most non-permit fish going between hobbyists in the USA and the rest of the world are going through luck and lack of knowledge of an obscure and nonsensical law :eek:. So I don't think we'll get an answer...

[davefrombc]

I'll hold my comments on previous US administrations too.
I don't know how he takes fish home, whether he has all the permits and BS or not; and I don't know him personally .. LOL.. only know him from the fall auction last year , and our spring one just past .
Just a note of interest ..
The picture on the gsas.org home page of a meeting shows Jen, a senior biologist at the Vancouver Aquarium, and member of the Vancouver Aquatic Hobbyists Club, speaking to the GSAS members.
The auctioneer is the fellow with the blue shouldered shirt right in the foreground

[Melody]

You are very nice, Dave, but I have the sneaking suspicion that you just told me to find out myself, if I want to know so darned bad :laugh:, and rightly so .

:offtopic: Does the VAHC have a method of electronic payment yet? I never get around to sending a cheque.... I don't even know where my cheque book IS. :rolleyes: I don't get to meetings or events, but I like to support the endeavor.

It really is too bad that we can't get fish into the US, I'd love to do some trading or sharing with our neighbours. There are many ALA members who will ONLY trade, although they've made exceptions for me because we're friends & fellow club members, bless their kind hearts. That's the main reason I work so hard for the ALA. However, it would make me happy to also provide something they want.:yes: