Free! Calling all guinea pigs!

[GaryofMontreal]

I'd like to try a little experiment. The young Aphyosemion striatum pictured below has begun his life as a breeder, and seems to be a perfect choice for the following project.
I want some volunteers outside of the Montreal region who want free killie eggs. I want to package them up and mail them over the summer, before August. I will give a precise count of eggs (I'll aim for 15) and what I want in return is:
a) a report on how many actually hatched;
b) a report on the dates of hatching;
c) someone who values the fish enough to raise them and enjoy them.

Striatum eggs usually take 14-18 days to hatch in water, but are slower in peat. I want to see how sending eggs on peat will work, so they would be my first free egg offering. If I can get other species laying regularly (should be easy enough) I can offer them. Ideally, I would want to send out a total of five envelopes, to get a sampling and to learn with.

Anyone game?
2230
Aphyosemion striatum GEMHS 00-33

[fishclubgirl]

I'm in!! Have been thinking about trying killies and have lots of smaller tanks!!

[vince0]

im in too

[Dan_G_Calgary]

I'll sign up, if you don't mind a 3rd Calgary location.

Edit:

What is their lifespan?
What is the optimum tank size?
What would you consider the minimum for them? (e.g. pari in 1 gallon show tank?)
How big are they full length?

[vince0]

amphysemion live a few years, they are similar to the killies i have in my 33g that i showed you dan... tank requirements would probably go be 5g if you want to breed and raise the fry in the same tank

they spawn on plants and the eggs take about 2 weeks to hatch, no need for peat...

and they only get up to 2.5"

i may be wrong on some the things i said and would really appreciate being corrected if i am...

[Dan_G_Calgary]

ah. ok. I'll pass then.

thanks

[Melody]

Sounds like a great experiment with a great fish. I think you need people who are really serious about killies so they stay dedicated to the task. A little hatching experience wouldn't hurt or you'll never know if it was the hatcher or the transport if they fail. That means I just eliminated myself from the running... oh the pains of being responsible! :laugh:

I'd love to follow along with the project though, so I hope you'll post about it.

[GaryofMontreal]

What I need is the hatch itself. I hope people can raise them and enjoy them, but I really need people to put them in water and see what'll come of it. Out west is ideal, because of travel time. I want them to spend four or five days in the mail, in the warmth.
I'll start with two volunteers, and see how it goes. First though, the fish have to cooperate. The striatum gave me six eggs this afternoon, and I'll check a few others as I go.
Vince, I will be a pain and correct you on one thing - there's no second letter "m" in Aphyosemion. It'll screw up your web searches if you type it like that.
This should be fun - a disorganized and poorly designed experiment to see if what I think is worthy of mythbusting. I want to try experimenting with very wet peat as a transport medium, as some of the eggs I've bought from Europe have come very wet, successfully. So far, I have hatched fish bought in the Czech Republic, Denmark, France and Bulgaria. Eggs from Denmark were here in 3 days, while the others took 5 or 6 working days. I want to try some of the packaging techniques I'm seeing, to see if I can do this.
If Vince and Fishclubgirl could PM me with addresses, I'll let them know when I'm mailing. Anyone else who wants in, just post it here.

[ljtiggs]

Hi my friend:Smile:

I am willing to help out.

As you know I have raised Killies for many years.

I also do a presentation on how to start raising killies (help for beginners). The presentation is called "Killies 101" - Some of the members may have seen it.

Also my wife and I were the last of the executives from the CKA before it folded.

One thing "Gary of Montreal" be sure to give them to new people so that we can get them interested in these fish (killies).

If you need help let me know.

[Ursus sapien]

There are a few plants-only 10gals kicking around here that could use little wiggly things in them. Lots of small live food on offer, too:-)

[amaruq]

Ah man!!!! I thought you were giving away Guinea Pigs :)

I got 3 already :)

You know i would be no good at this as I would worry so hard. I worry so much about the fish I got now.

I still have the salousi fry which are getting bigger and I am THRILLED!

[ksimdjembe]

Gary could you post a little bit more info as to the exact or at least suggested setup that would be needed for this?
what size tank, what size filter, what decor, what temp.
and then in the event of hatching, what food?

[mdfa.ca]

Gary,

I would love to try your experiment. You have interested me in killies with some of the previous discussions so this would be a perfect opportunity!

Margaret.

[GaryofMontreal]

All the killies I'll be collecting eggs from are stream dwelling fish that are, fishwise, the bottom of their local food chain. So they are leery of other species, and do best in single species tanks.
They swim well to dart, but they are not distance fish. That's partly why they have evolved so many varieties - they don't travel and tend to form geographically isolated breeding populations. So there are many varieties and species, but all have similar ecological needs.
I like to keep them in 10 gallon tanks, but fives will do. I filter with air - sponge or box filters. You can use a spawning mop if you want to collect eggs, or fill the tank with java moss and let nature take its course. In a tiny tank (5 gallons), you won't get too many young, but many species will give some.
Because they favour hard to reach (for predators) habitats, they need hiding places and cover. I keep mine with room lighting and no heaters. Equatorial Africa rarely gets as hot as southern Canada in the summer - weather data suggests a 26 degree groove that doesn't vary a lot year round. In the forest streams, especially coming from mountains, the water can be much cooler. No sun means no natural heater, and forest canopies do a good job of cooling.
The tank can be bare bottomed (dull) and NEEDS a cover, as jumping is a killie response to perceived danger. The eggs should be put in shallow water, which should be partially changed a couple of times during incubation. The young look at you through their transparent eggs for a couple of days, then pop out on their own. I remove them with a turkey baster and put them into a 5 gallon rearing tank. I keep it shallow, and feed them with tiny feedings of newly hatched brine shrimp, decapsulated brine shrimp eggs, krill fines, occasional spirulina powder, or really fine powder food. really, standard fry food for fish.
They'll be one cm in about six weeks, and should mature at 4-6 months, depending on the species, the food and the cleanliness.

Really, they are easy, if you can get your head around the concept of an aquarium with only one species of fish in it. If you want them for a community, you are missing the one key element for success.
2231
Aphyosemion punctatum

2232
Fundulopanchax mirabilis

2233
Aphyosemion amoenum

to be continued...

[GaryofMontreal]

Killies are great fish for people in regions where pet shops are weak. You can get beautiful fish or their eggs by mail (or at least if this works....). You need very little technology (an air pump, tanks and lids), and there are dozens and dozens of species to enjoy. Hundreds, really.
The stereotyped killie keeper is an older science/fish-nerd with lots of smaller tanks and a love of nature. An interest in evolution doesn't hurt. In Killi-Quebec, a number of our members live in smaller towns and more distant regions, but get to enjoy having rare fish. It's a perfect group for a vast country like ours.
2234
Aphyosemion splendopleure

2235
Aphyosemion amoenum Pouma

2236
Epiplatys roloffi

[Dan_G_Calgary]

Nice write up Gary.

derail:

Killies is an area of fish that I intend to actively work on as my 'challenge' fish. I am limiting myself at this time to annuals, but might expand later, otherwise I'd be all over this. I got a little excited when you posted this at first, because I read peat moss, and translated to annuals. My bad.

If you do branch out to annuals, I'm your huckleberry.

derail off.

[vince0]

Are epiplatis plants spawners?

[sunshine]

Id be happy to try. I have a few empty tanks at the moment. Ilive in London.

[GaryofMontreal]

Epiplatys are different evolutionary line, also from West Africa. They are plant spawners, but they are surface predators -with upturned mouths to take any insect life that falls in. They're often found with Aphyosemion, but up at the surface.
They school, but with dominant males. Sometimes, they literally hug the surface, and rarely come down. They're good with dwarf cichlids, though they will predate fry a little.

[OldMan]

I'd love to help out too Gary but if I am right, it would cost major bucks to ship south across that border. Being in the US, I am certain the border itself would add several days to the trip. The down side is having the eggs you mail in my direction confiscated by overzealous border guards.
Let me be the first to admit my experience so far with killies has been a dismal failure.

[vince0]

Hmmm that's very interesting Gary, I'm gonna have to research this species a lot more, I'm wondering If they would be good dithers for my breeding pai of rams in a 20-25 gallon tank

[catinthehat]

Received my first killies ever from Gary a few weeks ago and they are simply stunning fish. Have a trio of Fundulopanchax Mirabilis in a 10 gallon with some corydoras pygmeaus and some java moss and today I found some fry at the top of the tank........Gary thank you again for the wonderful fish and we are very lucky to have you as a member of this forum....
Gary also sent me a pair of the Aphyosemion striatum and they are very beautiful fish.....



Les

[GaryofMontreal]

Thanks Les.
For Vince - the killie I prefer as a dither is any Chromaphyosemion (a "Bivittatum" in older books). They generally tolerate higher temperatures than Aphyos, and don't eat fry like Epiplatys. They are pretty too, especially when they display. And they both like the surface and can outrun a parental dwarf cichlid. Since they top out at 1.5 inches, larger cichlids eat them.

And now, since I have human volunteers, I just checked the fish contribution. All my pairs are young, and killies breed differently from other egg-layers. While a Danio will release thousands of eggs into a cloud of sperm, or a cichlid will lay unfertilized eggs then sprayed by a male, an Aphyosemion pair lay and fertilize each egg, one at a time.
The striatum were busy, producing 14 eggs today. The mirabilis produced 6 and I found a real bonus, my wild-caught Chromaphyosemion splendopleure Njenje gave me a mop full of tiny eggs, many of which were looking right back at me while I looked at them.
So I'll have to take the weekend to monitor the mirabilis and striatum to see if they are fertilized properly (young males), and I'll have to get newly produced eggs off the splendos ( a species location -Njenje Cameroon- that had four survivors on its only importation, all of whom are here. It's that rare - 2 pairs in captivity...).

I have private messages from Vince and fishclubgirl, so I'll mail eggs to them tuesday morning. For the rest of the people offering to help in this experiment, it's first come first served for sending me your addresses!

[tiga]

I would like to help out too

[GaryofMontreal]

Okay, so I have five addresses, and I'll start sending next week as eggs look good.

[crabfan52]

Gary i have several tanks available atm as you know and would love to be part of your experiment if you are still looking for people

[GaryofMontreal]

I'm going to have to slow my plans with the heatwave we're having. It's in the mid-thirties, and that'll kill any killie egg in the mail. It's supposed to break by next Monday, so I'll be able to fire off eggs a week from today, if the heat doesn't make the fish stop.
I'm getting a good run of egg laying from striatum and splendopleure.

[Melody]

The West will be in the 30's by Friday, or here in BC anyway, just so you know.

[vince0]

That's perfect! I'll be in vancouver Friday!

[GaryofMontreal]

I'll plug a fan in, in the backyard, to try to cool it down before it gets out west to you.
I feel like an iguana in this weather.

[Melody]

I'll plug a fan in, in the backyard, to try to cool it down before it gets out west to you.
I feel like an iguana in this weather.
Please do! I'm a big lump of lazy when it's that hot :laugh: .

[vince0]

are you of mexican descent melody? need an afternoon siesta mayhaps?

[Melody]

Not to my knowledge, but I dig the concept!

[Dan_G_Calgary]

Thing I miss most from playschool/kindergarden... afternoon naps. Close second would be cookies and milk before the afternoon nap.

[Melody]

:SLEEP: I'm more productive after a nap... I'm just a bigger lump of lazy after cookies :laugh: .

[crabfan52]

i hear that

[GaryofMontreal]

Ahem,mmm back to the original topic. I have a double-sided setback, as the heat has arrived here with its boots on. We're running at 28 right now, at 9:30 AM. With the humidex, we'll be way over 40 by this afternoon.
The killies I keep shut off egg production at around 25-26. So until the blessed cold front arrives at the end of week and we get back to the mid to low twenties, there's nothing doing.
I'm conditioning a third species, Scriptaphyosemion guignardi Sougeta. The fish I have have grown up in with Belizean helleri, and are a rare, perfectly happy in a community killie that likes warmer water (it's from sub-Saharan northern Africa). I'm having fun with this. It's just a little slower than I'd hoped - I had enough eggs from striatum and splendopleure for four envelopes, but I can't mail in this heat and their development is fast with the warmth - gotta do it all again.
Here's the guignardi male I've set up to breed:
2242

[vince0]

absolutely gorgeous gary! is this another plant spawning killi? im starting to be very envious of your collection! it also makes me want to get started on my rack project so i can have some breeding tanks ready haha

[GaryofMontreal]

The Dahomey Gap is a species distribution break along the western coast of Africa. South of it, the killie fauna is Aphyosemion , lampeyes and Epiplatys, north of it, up to the deserts, you have an entire other show (though with different lampeyes and Epiplatys). The northern Aphyosemion types like Scriptaphyosemion seem rowdier to me, and like warmer water. This is the only one I have, although they are common enough in the killie hobby.

It's a plant spawner, with 12-18 days incubation. They are tougher fish than a lot of their southern cousins, and if I remember correctly, often older species in evolutionary terms.
I also find they prosper (though they won't breed) in community tanks, as long as there are no dwarf cichlids to push them around. They claim territories on the bottom of the tank, though males seem to co-exist just fine.

[Melody]

Ahem,mmm back to the original topic.

You are SUCH a teacher :Frog: . I hope the weather cooperates soon! At least this gives everyone time to get a tank ready and do some reading. There's more to this experiment than the free part :laugh: .

I Googled "Scriptaphyosemion guignardi Sougeta" and based on the fragmented info I found, I think you need to write articles about all of the species you send out.:yes:

[Ursus sapien]

I Googled "Scriptaphyosemion guignardi Sougeta" and based on the fragmented info I found, I think you need to write articles about all of the species you send out.:yes:
no kidding! info on the net is ...inconsistant. And who can argue with Garys success. once agaih, the 'resources' here at CAC outshine anything else on the net.

[vince0]

haha, with all the great information i seem to be getting out of gary, i think melody is right. some articles are in order, to get the word out there on these great fish... too little information is available on killis on the interwebz

[GaryofMontreal]

All right, it's hot and I was waiting for the Netherlands/Uruguay game, so I tore off a quick article on guignardi. It's posted in the articles sections.
I love vacation time when it's too hot to fix those danged eavestroughs like I'd planned to...

[vince0]

I love how your talking about it being too hot out, but your profile pic shows you in front of a huge snowbank! ( which reminds me of growing up in isle bizard and having an 8ft snowbank in front of my house every year)

[Melody]

Thank you Sir! You're a wonder :yes: .

I do not have time for killies... I do not have time for killies.... I do NOT NOT NOT!:twitcy:

[CACAdmin]

Many thanks for the article, Gary. :notworthy: Temptation to all (including Melody :wink: )

[GaryofMontreal]

I have three sets of eggs ready to go for Friday. The heatwave set me back a week. I have a good group of people ready to help out, so here's how we'll proceed.
I have two lots of splendopleure njenje and one lot of Scriptaphyosemion guignardi (the striatum went on strike in the heat, but produced 18 eggs in 2 days just before it got toasty - they could restart over the next day or two).
So, let me know which species you want in priority, or if you would rather wait for striatum as soon as they spawn.
You should have a container with no snails and an inch or so of water, ideally with a slow bubbling airline hose in it. Something at least as big as a sandwich tupperware box would be good. Also, a turkey baster should stand at the ready, as a fry catcher.
If (a big if) the eggs hatch, you can transfer them to a grow out tank.

Let's do this as first come, first serve, via private message. If you miss this lot, I'll get you in on next week's mailing. I have five people who volunteered for one mailing each.
So PM me species preference and I'll use regular post (part of the experiment) on Friday morning.

[vince0]

snails eat eggs? thats good to know - i had no idea lol!

what do these others species look like, those striatums are beauts!

[vince0]

once the eggs hatch, how long till the eggs can go in a breeder net, or a grow out tank?

[GaryofMontreal]

2266
Splendopleure njenje - young male at about half colour
2267
guignardi - the fertilizer of the eggs

2268
striatum

2269
police lineup style of a young, half developed splendopleure. The fins should get another 25% longer, and the colours intensify- these are wilds and I still have never seen what an adult male from Njenje looks like.

[Ursus sapien]

5g hatch out tank ready- check
fresh micro worm culture started - check
turkey baster bleached and rinsed- check!

thanks for the great intro to killies, Gary. I just wish I didn't fit your 'killie-nerd' description quite so closely:-)
2 questions (apologies if I've missed this in earlier posts): does the hatch tank need to be dimmed; and, instead of moving to a grow-out tank, can the water simply be raised in the hatching tank?

[Blossom112]

I could try this ....If you like .
Toronto area....
Will have a note pad attached to the tank lol and take lots of pictures

I would need a week or 2 ....to set up! no hurry here .
I have no experiance with these fish ......maybe that would be another experiment ....killies for dummies (j/k)
But i have all the requirement "stuff" to raise

[GaryofMontreal]

ursus,
I've tried removing fry from a separate container, and hatching eggs in the tank. One problem with keeping them in the tank is different rates of hatching. Three eggs produced the same day could hatch over 1-5 days. Once food starts to go in to a small body of water, the slower eggs are at a survival disadvantage.
Really, and I have a hard time remembering this as I handle them, the eggs are organisms that interact with their environment. They produce wastes and react to them.
Bright light isn't good, but light shade is. I keep mine in blue plastic lidded boxes (diaper wipe containers I've recycled for many years, since my kids are in high school and college).
If I put thirty eggs collected over a week in a tank and feed, hatching seems to stop after three days max. In a separate, eggs only container with water changes, they'll keep hatching for a week or two.
Sometimes eggs don't want to hatch. The embryos/larvae go into a quiet state, or during the initial moments when the egg is drawing in sperm, it also draws in too many minerals from the water and hardens a bit too much. In a smaller container, you can manipulate hatching. You can put the eggs in a small non-leaking sealed container of water, shove them in your pocket and go for a walk. The swishing can trigger hatching by imitating water movement in heavy rains. Or, you can suddenly add slightly cooler water in a rush. The temperature change and additional water pressure tell the fry it has rained heavily, and heavy rain is ideal for a killie fry as food washes into the water. He/she will wake up and decide to bail out fast.
You can't do any of those things with eggs in a tank, which will disperse (they move as the fish inside moves - it rolls them along. That doesn't happen in nature as they are adhesive, but once you pick them, they lose their stickiness).
They say the devil's in the details, but so are the angels. There's so much to learn with these fish, and they are so ideally suited to the puttering thinker type. Killies are the worst possible hobby for a control freak, but they are perfect if you have a sense of wonder and a willingness to experiment and tinker. They never cease to entertain me, and I got my first killies in 1992.

[mdfa.ca]

Thanks, Gary, for that explanation. I just love the idea of taking your killie eggs out for a walk :laugh:. Perfect hobby for a control freak, eh? Oh boy, I'm in trouble!

Got my egg tank ready and grow out tank has been already set up for weeks. Told my son (10) yesterday and he is all excited now. He can't wait to get them but was warned that he would need to keep a very detailed record of what is happening because it's an experiment for you. DOn't worry, I'll keep my own as well :wink:. I just worry about the temps here. Doesn't look like it's going to cool down anytime soon...

[Ursus sapien]

wow. I put the media into the water and... one little fish swam away.

here's a few of the visible eggs.

[vince0]

when did you get those lol

[Ursus sapien]

they arrived at 09.30 this morning from Montreal.

fingers crossed!

[vince0]

hmmmm i wonder when gary shipped them lol

[Blossom112]

good picture ! good luck will be following you :-)

[GaryofMontreal]

Ursus got some I was not going to send because they were too close to hatching - the heatwave scared me off putting them in the mail. But since she'd won an auction for other fish, I threw them in as express shipping looked good. I have a couple of envelopes going Friday (but the striatum are on strike).

[vince0]

arg! can't you settle with them... do we need to bring in an arbritrator?

[CACAdmin]

Great pics, Ursus. It's amazing to see those little eyeballs looking at you.

[Melody]

wow. I put the media into the water and... one little fish swam away.

here's a few of the visible eggs.

Amazing!

[GaryofMontreal]

So I have packaged up, for regular snail mail, eggs for the following list members - Tiga, Fishclubgirl, MDFA and Vince. Ursus has hers already. Others will follow, fish willing.
In return, I'd like feedback on when the envelope arrived and what you see in the white padding I'm trying the eggs in.
Then, as the eggs were collected over a week, watch how (if) they hatch, and around the start of August, please tell me how many hatched versus how many eggs were in the package.
You may get nothing from this, but I know I sent good eggs early in their development. I have a preconceived notion of what ratio will hatch, but every idea has to be tested!

[vince0]

nice!

thanks gary! ill keep a nice log for ya

[mdfa.ca]

Absolutely, Gary. And thank you again for this opportunity to experiment with a new species (new to me). Can't wait for the eggs to arrive.:laugh:

[Cowboychris]

Would love to help out im in Ontario. I think my kids would find that very exciting.
That is if you need more ppl to help out not sure on the delivery time.

Thanks and good luck!

[Ursus sapien]

pretty cool. I pulled another 4 (5? I can barely see these things) from the hatching tub. easy to see against the white padding. after that...gone.
bigger than white cloud hatchlings, though.

[fishclubgirl]

Got mine today and will open them when I get home. Am so excited!!

[mdfa.ca]

Congratulations, guys. I am really hoping I'll get mine today as well. Can't wait to go home.

Margaret

[Cowboychris]

My kids check the mail every day to see if they have arrived yet, and i keep telling them not yet but hey makes the summer go by right!

thanks again Gary

[tiga]

Mine came today:Smile:

[vince0]

dammit, im jealous! mine haven't gotten here yet! im hoping for tomorrow

[GaryofMontreal]

Chris,
I'm still collecting eggs for yours, planning to mail Monday (I'm a few short to make it worthwhile tomorrow). I started picking eggs earlier in the week, but I have to see signs they are growing inside before I can mail them, or the experiment is useless.

[Cowboychris]

not a problem Gary i will let the kids know to start looking next week lol


thanks

[mdfa.ca]

The eggs arrived yesterday! It was like Christmas in July. My son Chris was so excited to open the package, his hands shook. We put them in water right away. Those eyes are really something else! Here is a quick photo of them:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/mdfa/KilliEyes.jpg

I can definitely spot 4 or 5 with eyes already developed and about 13 in total. I'm sure the other two will become apparent once they start darkening. This is such a cool experiment. Thank you, Gary! Oh, and the "diary" has been started already.

Margaret.

[Ursus sapien]

hatching things never gets old:-)

[GaryofMontreal]

Chances are, the two you don't see died in transit. Still, 13 eggs darkened and several with eyes showing - I'm pleased with that result. The filter floss medium seems to work for transportation. As well, 3 out of 4 envelopes made it in a week. Not bad for regular post.

Now let's see how many hatch... the plot thickens.

[vince0]

still no sign of my envellope... alberta isn't that much further than manitoba lol

[mdfa.ca]

We have two hatchlings!!! ONe found this morning @ 9:00, next around noon. But..., they are so tiny, I'm afraid if I put them in a grow out tank, I'll never find them again!

[Melody]

Nice picture, and congratulations!

Vince, envelopes are very unpredictable. I've had them take up to two weeks, even to Alberta.:frown:

[vince0]

But but but... Fishclubgirl got hers Thursday :(

I hate crown corporations

[Melody]

You were expecting logic and consistency from the Government? :swoon:

[GaryofMontreal]

Now now. I've worked both public and private sector, and I've seen more people dogging it and getting away with it in the private sector than I see in public service.
My worst postal disasters have always involved the little private outlets we have around here - I drive an extra 2 km to use a real Post Office to ship my fish because the counter people are efficient and courteous. Admittedly, the woman in the private outlet has intricate tattoos to admire while you wait in line, but man, you have time to memorize the danged things...
Stuff happens.

[Melody]

I've worked in both too, incuding executive government and a crown corporation. Whether the staff are slackers or not, they are the most Mickey-Mouse-run organizations in the World. :yes: If someone suggests something logical at a meeting, everyone stops and stares, then they ignore it and carry on....LOL. There's also this notion that all Canadians can just pay more, like we're all as rich as they are. :rolleyes:

But whatever is wrong with CP, it's driving me nuts with it's inconsistencies and lack of accountability, all at very high shipping rates.

But I digress (again). Back on topic, how is it that the eggs don't get crushed when they go through the rollers? I'm considering some Rainbow eggs at the moment. ::D:

[GaryofMontreal]

Bubble wrap envelopes seem very effective. I've had eggs come in thin plastic boxes, maybe 1/8 of an inch deep, but I don't know where I'd get them. I'm trying placing the eggs on filter floss - just ordinary roll type polyester batting folded over and bagged, in a bubble wrap envelope. The eggs are in a sealed bag with a little water. They stay moist and yet aerated.
Margaret's thirteen survivors on fifteen (which have yet to hatch, but were not DOA!) are major stuff to me. That is a better survival rate than I have ever had before - on peat, I never beat a 50% arrive alive rate. The floss has a certain amount of give to go with its other properties.
I got the idea from a shipper in Germany, who sent me a delicate species with not only superb results, but where I could see the eggs, and see how many that didn't hatch went wrong here. When you buy eggs, there's always that doubt you were sent as many as you paid for, and that doubt can be destructive.

[mdfa.ca]

Gaaarrryyyyy,

you didn't tell me this was going to be so nerve wracking!!! :FishOnDaHead:

I put the babies in the grow out tank and, just as I feared, I can't see them! They simply disappeared! I don't know what to do!!! This is a control freak's nightmare. These little guys are even smaller than celestial pearl danio fry I think. I must have spent a good hour with my nose pressed to the glass of the tank, trying to spot them. One of them did hand out on the side for a few minutes but then took off again.

Promise they are ok?:err:

[Melody]

Bubble wrap envelopes seem very effective. I've had eggs come in thin plastic boxes, maybe 1/8 of an inch deep, but I don't know where I'd get them. I'm trying placing the eggs on filter floss - just ordinary roll type polyester batting folded over and bagged, in a bubble wrap envelope. The eggs are in a sealed bag with a little water. They stay moist and yet aerated.
Margaret's thirteen survivors on fifteen (which have yet to hatch, but were not DOA!) are major stuff to me. That is a better survival rate than I have ever had before - on peat, I never beat a 50% arrive alive rate. The floss has a certain amount of give to go with its other properties.
I got the idea from a shipper in Germany, who sent me a delicate species with not only superb results, but where I could see the eggs, and see how many that didn't hatch went wrong here. When you buy eggs, there's always that doubt you were sent as many as you paid for, and that doubt can be destructive.

Cassette cases are perfect for envelope shipping - we use them for snail eggs all the time. Who doesn't have a million of those laying around somewhere? But obviously what you're doing is working just fine.

The floss would 'breathe' better. The organic, acidic peat combined with heat might damage the eggs too, but I don't pretend to know enough about that to say - just thinking outloud.

Thanks for the info!

[vince0]

YAY!!!!!

My eggs showed up, but they still looked clear, is that something i should worry about?

I put them in the hatching tank right away, with an airline on the bottom of the floss so the bubbles gently rub across the surface...

If the eggs are still clear, does that mean i shouldn't expect anything from them, or could their development have been slowed from being in the mail so long?

[GaryofMontreal]

Ah, you were really hoping for striatum, so they were picked as they came. Some were less than 2 days old when I packed them, so development will be slower. You may have to wait 7-10 days for a hatch.
The splendopleure were firing eggs all over the place, so I could hold them til they started eyeing up, but I could tell you were dying to get eggs, so I gambled on fresh striatum ones since they were hatching well before I started the experiment....
The heat shut them right down, and when they restarted, they dropped from 10 a day pre-heat to 2 or 3 post-heat. It made collecting a little less uniform...

And yeah, the fry are small. I'm used to them so I don't bat an eye, but I can now see how it would throw someone. They generally go to ground for a few days - if you have ten in a five gallon, you might see two. They grow very fast, and will start nosing around at about ten days, if they determine it's safe. They'll be young adults in about 3 months, and full adults in 6 or 7.

[vince0]

i tell ya gary, i must have spent a good hour with a lamp on top of the tank and my face as close as my nose would allow me to the tank. And i see some eyes!

I'm excited to get these! I really hope they do good!

[GaryofMontreal]

If nothing else, this experiment seems to have shown how engrossing fish like killies can be. I love looking at the spectacle of my big community tank - the fish, the currents, the plants, the lighting...

Sometimes though, hanging your snout over a few eggs because you want to see what they're doing is good too. Getting very involved in hands on collecting of eggs, raising of fry, struggling for solutions to surprise problems, close observation, raising the adults, going through the cycle- I kept one Aphyosemion species from 1992 until I lost them this year, and it never got boring. There's just too much to be learned for it ever to lose its allure, for me. The smallest things are just so complex if you allow yourself to look closely at them.

[mdfa.ca]

And there is just this strange satisfaction when the babies grow. .. Two more hatched for me yesterday so I put them in the tank. Like you said, they go to ground, right under the sponge filter LOL. This morning I actually did see one - he was swimming along the glass and seemed to be a little longer than the hatchlings so was probably one of the first. I could actually see his caudal fin. And he seemed to have a full tummy, so things are good :laugh:.

[Ursus sapien]

This morning I actually did see one - he was swimming along the glass and seemed to be a little longer than the hatchlings so was probably one of the first. I could actually see his caudal fin. And he seemed to have a full tummy, so things are good :laugh:.
that's cool! I haven't seen any of the babies since moving them :-(

[vince0]

did you get the striatums or the other ones?

[Ursus sapien]

did you get the striatums or the other ones?
A. splendopleure 'Njenje'. There was a decent hatch rate, which says more about Gary's packing than my technique.
Speaking of splendid, did any one else notice Gary's splendid 'draftsman' printing? If I had printed the names on those little baggies y'all would still be wondering what you got:-)

[GaryofMontreal]

It's all in the trees, Vince. Almost everyone else got splendopleure, because they are a coastal Cameroon species that likes bodies of water that get a little sun. The water they come from runs down from the coastal volcanic mountains, which cools it compared to the 26 degree average air, but they are happy in warm water and therefore go on egg parties in Montreal in July.
Your striatum come from a few hundred km down the coast, in Gabon. They are a forest fish, from cooler, darker water bodies, and when the temps go higher, they go into energy conservation. Some of my Gabon fish will never give an egg above 23-24 degrees, but striatum are a little more generous. When I proposed the plan, the summer here was nice and cool. I got 18 eggs in one day from my striatum, and had collected a pile of eggs. Then it spiked to 40 with the humidex, and I held on to the striatum eggs as they were doomed at that heat. I have a lot of baby striatum as a result. The parents have never fired up again.
So I switched to splendopleure - a nice fish anyway, since it wanted to give lots of eggs. The have the cachet of being from wild-caught parents. You don't get that too often.
I'm saying "cf. splendopleure", which means "probably". As they age, they look like their close relative poliaki too. I still think they're splendopleure, but I'm not the least bit sure. I may never be. And so, that ball can be in your court, Ursus and Margaret, and we can compare notes as they grow.
Here's a male photographed today, one of two that could be the father of the young hatching now. He's the smaller one, so his fins are shorter and his colour less pronounced.
2352

[mdfa.ca]

What a beautiful little guy, Gary. And I love those wide mouths of theirs :laugh:. About being wild caught - are you saying that your adults that spawned the eggs Ursus and I got were wild caught or their parents were (the eggs' grandparents)?

[Cowboychris]

My kids love the Pic of the Fish and all ready have names picked out for them, can't wait till my pkg is in my mail box!!!


Thanks again Gary!!

[GaryofMontreal]

Chris,
Never count your killies before they hatch....

I have three lots of eggs I bought out of Bulgaria, from a source I've had success with before. From what I can see, all the eggs were wiped out in transit. It's a crap-shoot. I'm sure the seller gave me honest numbers, the packaging was perfect and they only spent 5 days in the mail. But somewhere along the way, they were subject to extreme conditions - probably heat. It was worth a try, but it doesn't always work, even between Montreal and where you are.

Margaret - the parent fish came to Canada a few weeks ago as sub-adult fish, direct from Cameroon. They were touch and go for about a week, then they took off. I think it was late March or early April.
So your fry are "F-1" - first captive-bred generation. What you will see when they grow is what a kid fishing the edges of a brook in Njenje Cameroon would see.

[mdfa.ca]

That makes them so much more special. Thank you! I will print your picture and send it to my son @ the camp.

[Ursus sapien]

this entire sequence has been a trip. regardless of how things turn out, thanks for including me:-)

[vince0]

I thank you so much for including me in this experiment Gary, unfortunately I think the eggs died in transit :(

[mdfa.ca]

That's too bad, Vince,sorry to hear that.:Comfort:Are you sure they're not just "sleeping"? Maybe you could take them for a walk, like Gary suggested in one of the older posts?

I finally got to see two of the babies last night. They came out and actually fed on some golden pearls. One of them hung out most of the evening and this morning he was out again. I should have some BBS for them this evening but I think they are still too small for them...

[vince0]

i think the plan is to keep an eye on the auction and maybe get a pair of something nice, and make my own eggs lol, i have good success doing it that way lol

[GaryofMontreal]

That's why I'm always afraid to sell eggs. Still, results are good. Four people out of the five who have received eggs have reported in, and three have had success. I just mailed eggs to Chris this morning, so we'll see how he does.

[GaryofMontreal]

Vince, don't give up quite yet. I received some eggs from Arizona last summer - five species. Two never hatched, one hatched on schedule, and the other two must have gone into diapause, something they should not have done. It's a state of arrested development due to environmental conditions, and is the basis for why many annual Nothobranchius eggs can wait six months to hatch.
I had a Chromaphyosemion (usually 12-18 days incubation) 20 days after they arrived here. I got 3 fry and still have the species going. I also got some Scriptaphyosemion after 21 days (since lost). I don't quite understand what happened there, but I only got the young because I was too lazy to dump out the incubation tanks. The young could have been a couple of days old, but not much more. You figure it took a week to get here, and to be conservative, two weeks here before fry, and something happened.
I always wait at least a week before I give up now. Your striatum are still within range.

[vince0]

Thanks for the kind words Gary, I'll keep my hopes up... I've never hatched eggs this way, should I do wc's in the hatchery tank?

[Cowboychris]

Thanks again Gary will be checking the mail every day lol

[Cowboychris]

They Have Arrived safe and sound and in the tank

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/C0WB0YCHRIS/Killifish/DSCF5938.jpg
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/C0WB0YCHRIS/Killifish/DSCF5939.jpghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/C0WB0YCHRIS/Killifish/DSCF5940.jpghttp://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a392/C0WB0YCHRIS/Killifish/DSCF5943.jpg

Thanks Again Gary!!!

[mdfa.ca]

Congratulations!!!

[Mrs.JP]

So I'm curious! Was the shipping to out west about the same as the Stamp in CowboyChris's picture?
If so I'm surprised you can send eggs in such a small package. I can't believe how interested I became in this. It is too bad that the heat can affect them so much. I haven't kept killies if I would have saw the post earlier I would have tried to get in on the experiment.
Gary was the bags wrapped in anything? Do you think some batting around the bags would do anything to stabilize the temp of the bags?
Sorry just a thought I had while reading.

[GaryofMontreal]

Here I am, in Saint-John NB at the Big Tide Brewing Company, a really fine microbrewery, sipping a pint and checking my mail. I just bought some bags of dulce for the livebearers, and carried them through the kind of fog where you expect to bump into Sherlock Holmes. Life is good.
I sent the eggs by regular mail. That was part of the experiment. There isn't much you can do about temperatures except to send them when conditions are good.

[Ursus sapien]

It was one of those days today where it would have been better to stay in bed. I came home in a mood, grumpy and ready to park myself on an ocean-bound iceberg.
Good thing I didn't, 'cause I would have missed the babies! At least two of the hatched killies from Gary's eggs have decided to become uninvisable and show themselves:-)

[CACAdmin]

Sorry to hear you had such a rough day but glad to hear there was some good news in the tanks. The wee ones probably knew you needed something to boost your spirits.

Even though not participating in this experiment, it's really interesting to follow. A big thanks to Gary and all you willing 'guinea pigs' for taking us on this journey.

[Ursus sapien]

:-) I was pretty thrilled- I didn't think any had survived and was going to prep the tank to receive rainbow mops! Found new picta and bristlenose fry that day, too:-)

[tiga]

I have not been online very much this summer but I have had fry from the time the package came to me only 2 fry are still alive.

[Cowboychris]

Well i am sorry to say but no Fry's have hatched its been 16 days in water and nothing should i wait a little longer? just wondering thanks and have a great day.:frown:

[GaryofMontreal]

It figures the one kids were waiting for would go wonky. Murphy's law.
Yours were striatum sent the day after they were picked from mops, so at most two days old. I've never put striatum eggs out of water incubation that soon, so it could technically slow them down (or kill them, I guess). The experts say it can take 28 days for Aphyosemions that normally hatch in 2 weeks to hatch after being on peat. So there's still hope, but very faint hope.

I'd say the experiment produced fry in 5 of 6 mailings, but small numbers in 2 of those. So it gives a real success rate of 50%, with a much lower hatch rate compared to eggs sent.

For me receiving eggs this year, I have received 13 bags of eggs. 6 have given me good hatches, 1 gave me 3 fry and 6 gave me nothing. So the ratios are about the same. I think if I were ever to sell eggs, I'd insist on 2 day express - for a little more cost, results would probably be way better. I'd also limit mailing to periods of the year when day temps got no higher than 24. It'd be a late Spring, late summer adventure.

I'd like to thank my volunteers - I really wanted to try that and see how it panned out. Sorry there Chris, but I hope it was at least interesting for everyone. For the price of a few beer downtown and a few hours work, I learned what I was going for. These weren't the results I wanted, but. I hope the splendopleure grow up for the people who got them. You should see the Dad now. Whew.

[Cowboychris]

hey Thanks for the opportunity it was fun waiting and waiting and waiting lol and putting them in and watching everyday, it was fun and that was the whole reason fun for the Kids, any time you need more test subjects just let us know!!!! thanks again!


:notworthy:The Lyman Clan:notworthy:

[Ursus sapien]

most of my fish are of the peaceful-but-boisterous variety; these baby killies are soooooo shy and still! If they didn't always hang out in the same spot I would never find them.

whatever the status of your experiment, Gary, you've hooked more than just me as a new fan of the 'family'. oh, and, any chance of a shot of dad?

[Cowboychris]

yes would love to see a pic or two too

[vince0]

Gary thank you for including me in the experiment, i unfortunately did not get fry, and im thinking that the heat wave we had during shipping may have been to blame.

Again Thank YOU!

[GaryofMontreal]

The fish have to recover from the great hunger of my vacation, but when they start, I can resend to you guys (Vince and Chris). I'll try for splendopleure though - they traveled better. It'll take at least a week for them to start up. I'll let you know what starts producing.
I'll have lots of killies by Spring. The ones I got are doing well, but it'll be months before I know sex ratio, and they won't be breeding, if they breed, before January.
I think I'll be checking poliaki and splendopleure.
I have a good crew of quick growing striatum from the eggs I mailed myself. Again, Murphy's Law - I didn't need them, so they hatched and grew like mad.

[mdfa.ca]

Gary,

a great big thank you for allowing us to be part of this experiment. My son and I have enjoyed it immensely and yes, you've got two more addicts I think :laugh:. I had 4 hatch but only 3 surviving. I'm pretty sure the 4th one never made it into the grow out tank - I either dropped him or he jumped/dripped out of the baster during transfer as I never actually saw him enter the water. The remaining three are about 1/3" and, as Ursus said, so quiet and shy, I hardly ever see them. There is a big tangle of moss in their tank and that's where they hang out mostly. They are probably having a hard time with the high temperatures still... I might take this tank to the basement this weekend.

Would love to see the photos of dad as well :wink:

Margaret.

[GaryofMontreal]

Okay, he wouldn't let me focus, but I'm going to claim they're art photos until I can get the %&**$#! to pose. You can at least see the colours and fins.
2405

2406

The lime green dorsal with the orange tip is getting really long. Remember, this fish hatched in nature - there is no artificial selection operating here. This is all based on the tastes of the females - they like their guys to look like this.

Okay, out of focus is the new grainy...
2407
This is Aphyosemion bualanum, or elberti, depending on the expert, the fish in the tank next door to the splendopleure. I hope to have a pile of these by next year

[vince0]

and i hope that you get tons of these to put up for auction so i can snatch them up! lol

[GaryofMontreal]

He swam in front of me when I had the camera! I don't spend time waiting for fish to come out. I try to get them when they're at ease, and I scared this guy when I first tried. Here he is, as a young adult now.
2408

2409
Note that the females aren't quite as colourful as the males...
2410

2411
There are two males in the same tank, as well as a half a dozen half-inch fry. Generally, adult Chromaphyosemions don't eat young, although juvies eat newly hatched fry.

[fishclubgirl]

Oh my gravy, he's gorgeous. I didn't get anything from my eggs but had fun setting up a show tank and checking everyday. Our water is far from ideal for killies so that may be a factor too. Sign me up for any further experiments as I am now keeping distilled water on hand!!

[Ursus sapien]

and i hope that you get tons of these to put up for auction so i can snatch them up! lol
x2 fashur:-)

[mdfa.ca]

They sure are beautiful fish. Well, beautiful being a major understatement... It sure makes me wonder what environmental and survival stimuli would push them towards developing such bright, striking colours in a prey fish. You'd think it would make more sense to be muted and blend in.

Thank you for the pictures, Gary!

[CACAdmin]

They are beauties. I think from the sounds of it, Gary, you're going to have a waiting list for the offspring.

[Ursus sapien]

They sure are beautiful fish. Well, beautiful being a major understatement... It sure makes me wonder what environmental and survival stimuli would push them towards developing such bright, striking colours in a prey fish. You'd think it would make more sense to be muted and blend in.

Thank you for the pictures, Gary!
in the bird world, pheasants (including peacocks) occupy the same ecological position as killies: food. Yet they are some of the most extravagant and colourful of avians.

It's all down to sexual selection. Females choose who they mate with, and they choose the brightest colours and longest tails. (You'll notice that females are more intelligently coloured, in muted greys and browns and blondes. They need to be unobserved, to fulfill nesting obligations.) That's because the males are expendable. They have one purpose, in evolutionary terms, and that is to inseminate. Once that's done, bring on the tigers.

[GaryofMontreal]

There aren't a lot of shallow water or territorial species of fish where it isn't easier to catch males than females. It's a common observation with wild caught fish. Behaviorally, males are out there hopping around, fighting each other and preening, while females stay in cover and make their choices.

Female killies are often caught down in the leaf litter on the bottom - collected by the fisher netting the leaves and sorting through them. Males are often seen under the surface showing off.

Guppy females have been observed hanging around in dangerous areas when they are seriously outnumbered by sexually aggressive males. It's theorized that the risk of being eaten is lesser for drab females than for the colourful males, and a little peace is worth having the potential boyfriend eaten. The guys come in cruising and the predators munch them, while the females are risking their lives, but keeping their sanity.

[mdfa.ca]

Thank you, Gentlemen. That makes perfect sense, as nature usually does.
Well, on another note, miracles happen! I do have 4 killie fry after all :laugh::spinny:. Did some water changes today, moved a big tangle of moss, and suddenly there were all four of them swimming around! Yeah! I'm so glad that last one did not get dropped or jumped out.

[CACAdmin]

Congrats on the killie fry, Margaret. That was a wonderful surprise. :Smile:

[mdfa.ca]

Moved my killies (Oooh, I like saying that!) to another tank yesterday as they were with CPD fry and I could never see them. They are in a nice, planted 5 Gal. And yes, there are still 4 left! Yeah! I'll try and get some photos in a day or two.

Gary, when do you start seeing colours in them? And when can you tell their gender?

[GaryofMontreal]

I don't know. I hatched some striatum and splendopleure around the same time you hatched the splendopleure and the striatum are easily five times as big as the splendos, and easy to sex.
With these descendents of a wild population that has probably never been raised in captivity before, all bets are off. I can tell you they are slower growing than any other capture locality of splendopleure I've ever kept.
If they ever grow large, they won't be cannibals, as I have a pile in with the adults as well.
I bought eggs of A bualanum/elberti, A ocellatum and A lamberti right around when I sent to you, and all of them except the lamberti are now sexing out.
I don't think we'll really know about the Njenje til we tell each other, with experience of them...

[mdfa.ca]

Wow, Gary, I feel like a killie pioneer. But you are totally right - they do grow very slow. They are now what, about 8-9 weeks? They are barely over 1/2 inch, getting close to 3/4". I've looked at these guys a lot last night and honestly could not see any differences between the four. So, it's either way too early to show or I have all females or all males. Any chances we could see pics of your fry? For comparison? Here are my guys:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/mdfa/My%20fish/njenjefry01.jpg

Please excuse the algae-covered side walls of the tank:err:. I grow it for the snails LOL. Can you see the 2nd little guy hiding in this pic?

And another, slightly more head-on view. The other guy is still there...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/mdfa/My%20fish/njenjefry02.jpg

Now that I can see them better, I'll be able to keep an eye on them and track the progress of their colouration.

[CACAdmin]

thanks for snapping some pics of them, Margaret. They're cute. We'll just have to be patient to find out the sex ratio.

[mdfa.ca]

Hmmm, it seems I might have gotten lucky and have two males and two females. Of course I have no experience with Killis whatsoever, so who knows. Two of them started consistently displaying two darker dorsal stripes (running nose to tail) and just a hint of orangish colouring on their fins while the other two remained very muted grey. This has been happening for the last two weeks and they are now about 1 1/4" long.

Gary, would you mind telling us how your fishies look and if you can see any differences in them?

Margaret.

[vince0]

In my opinion, you should both post pictures so that we can compare, and be jealous of your hatches (mine never did anything :(

[Ursus sapien]

it's official: my two surviving Aphyosemion splendopleure are both females. horrible photo- it's the closest I could get to the tank with my bright red camera before they dove for cover)

is it it too early to ask if you'll be listing any boy s on the auction come spring, Gary? (he asked hopefully:-)

[GaryofMontreal]

Just remind me - I have tons of them coming along in with the parents, and a few are identifiable males. We can trade for something.

[CACAdmin]

it's official: my two surviving Aphyosemion splendopleure are both females. horrible photo- it's the closest I could get to the tank with my bright red camera before they dove for cover)


Thanks for posting the pic. Storm, you're going to have to investigate camouflage covering for your camera. :wink: :laugh:

[Ursus sapien]

no kidding, Jay. it's an exercise in stealth to get close enough to see details, never mind taking a snap.

[GaryofMontreal]

They are really shy. I have a second splendopleure from close by (Batake) which is always up there showing off, but the Njenje fish is shy no matter how I set it up. I wonder if they have had to adapt to heavier/faster predation in one area and not the other. I have their tanks on the same rack (not close enough for jumpers!) with the same lighting, planting, water, everything. One tank's a party, the other a wary shadowy jungle.2660
That's Batoke, which took five minutes to get a snap of.

Below are two shots of njenje males, the result of two days of me stalking around like I'm a jaguar with a camera. They come out when I look, but when they see the camera, they run.

2661

2662

[vince0]

Coooool!

I wonder what my population will be like?

[GaryofMontreal]

Your Ekondo Titi is one of the old-timers in the hobby - it goes back a ways. That means lots of pictures.
There's a nice splendopleure gallery here, with Ekondos well represented.
http://www.aka.org/wak/Ref_Library/Aphyosemion/A.splendopleure.htm

[vince0]

man that site is sweet, thanks for providing the link gary

[CACAdmin]

Nice pics, Gary... thanks for taking the time to "stalk" you fish so that we can get a chance to see them.

[Ursus sapien]

I'm still blown away by the wild range of localized variations. Every puddle seems to have a different colour code.
Lucky us:-)

[GaryofMontreal]

There are Chromaphyosemions all down the coast of West Africa from Benin to Gabon. The British controlled Benin and Nigeria and named the main ones there A biteniatum. The French controlled the south, and their scientists named their version A splendopleure. I've always been suspicious that the convenient border between splendopleure and biteniatum is right at the old colonial (and current Nigeria/Cameroon) border. These fish are economically worthless, but if someone ever digs, I would expect a wildly varied ring species all along the coast. Either they are a few dozen species, or one big one.
In the fifties, everyone would have crossed them to make them prettier. They probably did do that, and made sterile mules. The ring species idea is really fascinating and absolutely practical for fishkeepers who like small stuff like this. It helps when it shows on the outside of a pretty fish, like it does for splendopleure.
I used to know an elderly gentleman who kept nothing but different Chromaphyosemions. 50 tanks - all variations on a theme.

[Dan_G_Calgary]

You've inspired me again Gary. I stalked my Apistogramma Bitaeniata last night and got one or two photos of him 'flaring' at the other male, the females, his reflection and I think he flared an apple snail a couple times. I will post the pics in another thread soonish...

But on topic, am I the only one who doesn't know what ring species are? I can kind of guess, but it's a bit fuzzy for me.

[vince0]

yeah actually, that term is gonig right over my head at the moment, please provide further information please

[GaryofMontreal]

Sorry - I love this one because it has practical applications for fish breeders as well as demonstrating part of the process of evolution. Here goes, oversimplified.
Let's pretend Canada has a tropical killifish species established from coast to coast (10 million years after global warming). These fish don't travel well. In Newfoundland, they are red and blue. The nf fish can breed with Pei, NB and NS versions, even if there are minor variations in the colours. In eastern Quebec though, there has been enough genetic drift that the almost identical looking fish can breed with the PEi and NB populations, but the results from others are sterile. The Quebec ones can breed with the fish from Ontario. Ontario fish can breed with Quebec or manitoba, manitoba with sask or Ontario, and so on, in a ring. They all look more or less the same but there are genetic barriers. By BC, the red and blue fish is red, blue and yellow, and although it is called the same species as the nfld fish, they can't reproduce successfully. The young born alive are sterile.
But if the ring closes as a circle, we are back to breeding populations side by side.

So if you cross a Benin biteniatum with a Nigerian one, it may work. It may carry lethal genes as well. The splendopleure in the photos at the AKA site aren't separate species, but they breed very true to their look. An aquarium bred splendopleure from Batoke is identifiably a Batoke, and will be for generations. The different populations come from close together, sometimes a few km. But the terrain means that even in floods, they don't meet. They aren't different species, though they may become them with time and continued isolation. More than one killie has been lost because, since they looked the same, they were crossed, and fertility plummeted.

One philosophy splits these differences into different species (increasingly so with killies). A second scientific approach lumps big species (the old livebearer approach, which seems to be changing). My philosophy says both approaches make sense and don't make sense, and maybe we're asking the wrong questions. I dunno. It's cool to look at and contemplate. That much I do know.

[bae3]

One philosophy splits these differences into different species (increasingly so with killies). A second scientific approach lumps big species (the old livebearer approach, which seems to be changing). My philosophy says both approaches make sense and don't make sense, and maybe we're asking the wrong questions. I dunno. It's cool to look at and contemplate. That much I do know.

The big problem is that the concept of a species doesn't map perfectly to the reality in nature. The natural unit of evolutionary change is a population. In these killifish you have 'cryptic species', populations that look alike but aren't interfertile. while with rift lake cichlids you have 'species swarms', populations that look quite different from each other yet are interfertile.

While a lot of species are obviously 'good', i.e. it's clear what does and doesn't belong to the species, the real world is an awfully messy place that resists being shoehorned into the rigid framework of taxonomy developed in the 18th and 19th centuries.

[GaryofMontreal]

There are species like us, sitting alone and easy to define because all our closest relatives are extinct. We're big and mobile - yesterday in Montreal I spoke to an Australian, an African, a bunch of Canadians, a Chinese guy and a couple of Koreans - all Homo sapiens and all, like me, representatives of the last of the Homo line. We don't stay in one spot and the world is our habitat.
A smaller animal with limited mobility or a narrow range has a different story, and it's one we find hard to grasp. There are primates close to us, but we're the one part of our direct branch still breeding (and breathing). In Aphyosemion, the branches are all tangled but distinct. The close connections are side by side, not meeting and mixing but all flourishing in different habitats. The concept of the species makes little sense there, as you can't draw the lines.
Apistogramma gibbiceps is a good example. Aquarists used to argue about whether it was dead easy to breed, or incredibly hard. There was no middle in the debate. With further collecting, we've learned that gibbiceps from one region can breed in regular North American tap. Another gibbiceps has colonized super soft blackwater regions and has evolved eggs that can't tolerate minerals in the water. Any difference from their extreme habitat in nature, and these specialized fish can't breed. So are they the same species? They are identical, and we 'see' only the difference when we try to breed them. Other adaptations they might have aren't apparent to us. But one is fine tuned by evolution to live in an extreme habitat, and the other is a generalist that fits into most any water that's wet.
Deep down, it's a crappy world for a control freak to try to figure out.... I'm going to start telling people that my messy desk at work is an artistic representation of the order of nature.

[bae3]

Deep down, it's a crappy world for a control freak to try to figure out.... I'm going to start telling people that my messy desk at work is an artistic representation of the order of nature.

Hear, hear!

One result of all the new genetic sequencing work over the past few decades is the discovery that 'lateral transfer' -- movement of DNA between species -- is a whole lot more common in nature than anybody suspected. Quite a few species are now known to have a 'reticulate phylogeny' ( reticulate means net-like), rather than the tree-like phylogeny assumed to be the almost invariable standard. I.e. the species shows 'introgression' of genetic material from more than one species. While this seems to be due to crosses in vertebrates, there's a lot more than that going on. For example, in plants, viruses can move genes between unrelated species. The bacteria that cause bubonic plague contain pieces of iridoviruses that usually parasitise insects.

One economic effect of all this is that everywhere in the world 'Roundup-ready' canola has been grown, the local weedy mustards pick up the herbicide resistance gene from the canola and become a problem within 3-4 years. Nobody had any idea that there was significant introgression between this crop and these weeds, but the selective pressure of the herbicide is so powerful that any weed that acquires resistance has an immense selective advantage. So even the very rare fertile cross can rapidly take over the 'weed' niche.

[GaryofMontreal]

Now I'm getting excited by this set of ideas. This is a great time when we've once again learned how little we know, and all kinds of new possibilities are opening up. I don't have the training or skills to be a mainstream part of it, except I enjoy reading how it all seems to work and follow the work of those who get to explore.
When I started with fish, there were species. They were rock solid things with solid names. Then the learning began, and it has exploded with DNA research.
I'd hate to live in an ordered, everything has rhyme and reason world. There is so much unexpected stuff being figured out, and it really stands my prejudices on their heads. For me, it's my interest in this hobby that keeps exposing me to all this thought provoking material.
And since I spend a good chunk of my time visiting a family member in a hospital ward full of elderly people with dementia and Alzheimer's, I like having my thoughts provoked.http://canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/images/smilies/yes.gif

[Ursus sapien]

And since I spend a good chunk of my time visiting a family member in a hospital ward full of elderly people with dementia and Alzheimer's, I like having my thoughts provoked.http://canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/images/smilies/yes.gif
oh ya!

[mdfa.ca]

I know this is a very old thread, but I wanted to let you know, Gary, that the original Splendopleure "njenje" you sent me as eggs are still going strong and still spawning. They remain very shy but I love the little guys. I currently have about 9 fry of different ages. So far I only lost 1 adult female. I think she was from the original eggs, but the 1st male is still here, often showing his sons who's boss :laugh:.

[Ursus sapien]

they're delightful, aren't they? Mine are going strong, too.

[mdfa.ca]

Indeed they are. I just wish they were a bit easier to photograph. I've been trying to get a good photo of them but to no avail.

[Ursus sapien]

they are hard to capture. These are my best efforts here (http://www.stormiidae.blogspot.com/p/killies.html).

[GaryofMontreal]

Storm, your tanks are beautiful. I manage to raise nice fish, but more and more, I think I have to address that issue of plant growth. My fish must feel like slum kids dropped into a lush green forested valley when they go to your place.

[Ursus sapien]

thanks Gary. I fear, though, that in person my tanks look more swamp-like than beautiful. It's the distinction between a planted aquarium and an aquarium with plants in it. My tag says 'duckweed happens', but 'hair algae farmer' would be just as appropriate!

[mdfa.ca]

Storm, hair algae is my nemesis as well, so don't feel bad. And I second Gary's comment, beautiful tanks and beautiful fish!