Large amazon biotope

[PinkPunisher]

Hey there everyone! I recently picked up a 96"x18"x15" aquarium and I was thinking of making an amazon biotope out of it. I know I want to incorporate tetras into so it needs to be fairly peaceful.

For filtration I was thinking of using three or four Rena XP2's and for heating I was thinking one or two Hydor inline heaters (recommended wattage?)

Lighting I was thinking two 6700K 4' t5 bulbs and maybe two 4' t5 actinic bulbs? If not actinic then what would suggest? I figured actinic would really make the colours pop on the fish but I could be wrong

Planting I've been debating about for a while, I'm think if its gonna be planted it will be very sparingly. Like for example some mosses and maybe a floating plant.

Now here comes the real problem, stocking! I've got two ideas floating around in my head and I'll post both lists. You'll have to excuse how.. messy they are as I can't decide what I like the most!

So here is;

Stocking list idea one.

9x Adolfo's Cory (Corydoras adolfoi)
OR
9x Panda Cory (Corydoras panda)
OR
9x Tucan Cory (Corydoras tukano)

4X Zebra Oto (Otocinclus cocama)

1x Flash Pleco (L204) (Panaque sp.)

9x Earth eater (Geophagus abalios)

45x Cardinal tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi)

10x Coral/Ruby Red Pencilfish (Nannostomus mortenthaleri)

5x Horned Bumblebee Snail

Stocking list idea two

9x Adolfo's Cory (Corydoras adolfoi)
OR
9x Panda Cory (Corydoras panda)
OR
9x Tucan Cory (Corydoras tukano)

6 Apistogramma nijsseni
OR
6 Apistogramma gossei
OR
6 Apistogramma bitaeniata
OR
6 Apistogramma steindachneri
OR
6 Apistogramma pandurini
OR
6 Apistogramma baenschi "Inka"

2 Flash Pleco (L204) (Panaque sp.)

3 Whiptail/Twig Catfish (Farlowella acus)

15 Black Neon Tetra (Hyphessobrycon herbertaxelrodi)
OR
15 Bleher's Rummynose Tetra (Hemigrammus bleheri)

20 Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi)

15 Emperor Tetra (Nematobrycon palmeri)
OR
15 Ulrey's Tetra (Hemigrammus ulreyi)

If you can't tell I like the look of yellow apisto's http://ovas.ca/Smileys/SmileySet1/grin.gif

So I'm mainly looking for opinions, recommendations, etc on what I can stock the tank with. Also If there are any problems with what I listed above for filration, heating, etc.

Cheers,

Spencer

[CACAdmin]

What an awesome size tank. The possibilities are endless. I'd love to have the room to have a tank that size (approx. 112 gallons according to the link I used here: Calculating Tank Volume (http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1482)).

If it were me I'd use two 200w heaters and especially as you indicate a sparsely planted tank, I'd go with the combo you suggested of actinic and fluorescent lighting you suggested. (Actinic lighting does nothing for plants but I do like the look of a tank with actinic lighting).

As for stocking, I'll leave that to those who are more familiar with those fish.

[GaryofMontreal]

I love Geophagus sp Abalios, but that's from having kept them for a long time. A tank that size would only support four, and they would eventually eat the red pencils and all the cardinals. It's an eventual six to eight inch fish - gorgeous and peaceful, but big and delicate. Big fish eat little fish....
I like the Apistogramma version best, but not with Nematobrycon. Both groups are bottom oriented territorial fish, and the Apistos will win.
I have a lot of corys in my 120, and they are always a delight to watch. They get along with Sturisoma and Farlowella.
Now, if I were king of the world - an Apisto based tank can also have Dicrossus filamentosus, and they are something to behold.
Red pencils are great, but all pencils are. And if you ever see any of the Loreto tetra species, they grow into amazing schooling fishes.

Two heaters (200w) are a good idea. I switched out of an Amazon set-up in my 120 to reduce heater use, but found two heaters essential.

If you aren't a geographic tank purist, please plant it. African plants work better than most SA ones as they need less light. You could use Cryptocorynes from Asia, Anubias from Africa, java ferns and such to be undemanding for care but to give the fish a greater sense of security (and increase their beauty). I have never trimmed any of those plants. I just water them.

[PinkPunisher]

To be quite honest I liked the sound of the Apisto tank for as well. I didn't know that Nematobrycon palmeri was a bottom dwelling tetra or I'd never have included them, I just assumed they were mid-top like most tetras! haha

I've been debating on have just one kind of cory or two, do you think they will form sepperate shoals, or just one large one? Should I worry about anyone bugging the Farlowella's or will they just move to a new area if bugged?

I do like the look of Dicrossus filamentosus but I think for now at least I'm gonna try and keep it to one species of Apisto (Yes I realize they're not actually Apistos but same difference :laugh:)

Do you think a medium sized school of pencil fish would look better then one of my current tetras? I'm thinking I'll go with Blehers Rummynoses, Cardinals, and Ulrey Tetras. I'm hoping to see them all school some-what seperately, do you think this is possible with these three or will they all just make one big mash?

As nice as those Loreto tetras are I'm going for lots of colour on the fish, or at least a quite unique look to each. Its gotten to the point where I was tempted not to use Blehers Rummynoses because they had red noses and I thought it might take away from the Cardinals reds! haha

Has anyone heard anything bad about the Hydor inline heaters? I'd like to use them as I hate the look of junk in my tanks. Junk being heaters, air stones, etc.

I've thought about planting it but I want to go with sand bottom and everything I've read has said that sand and plants don't mix well. I would like to make it a 100% amazon tank but then I run into the problem with wood. Yes I realize a little bit over the top. So plants from other areas aren't to much of a problem.

Would including some Ottos be a good idea or do you think I have my bases covered for algea removal? Once the algae is gone I would supplement the L204 and Farlowella's with algea wafers and various veggies.

So here is my slightly updated stock list idea.

9x Panda Cory (Corydoras panda)
OR
9x Tucan Cory (Corydoras tukano)

8 Apistogramma pandurini
OR
8 Apistogramma baenschi "Inka"

2 Flash Pleco (L204) (Panaque sp.)

3 Whiptail/Twig Catfish (Farlowella acus)

15 Bleher's Rummynose Tetra (Hemigrammus bleheri)

20 Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi)

15 Ulrey's Tetra (Hemigrammus ulreyi)

10 Three-Lined Pencilfish (Nannostomus trifasciatus)

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,

Spencer

I love Geophagus sp Abalios, but that's from having kept them for a long time. A tank that size would only support four, and they would eventually eat the red pencils and all the cardinals. It's an eventual six to eight inch fish - gorgeous and peaceful, but big and delicate. Big fish eat little fish....
I like the Apistogramma version best, but not with Nematobrycon. Both groups are bottom oriented territorial fish, and the Apistos will win.
I have a lot of corys in my 120, and they are always a delight to watch. They get along with Sturisoma and Farlowella.
Now, if I were king of the world - an Apisto based tank can also have Dicrossus filamentosus, and they are something to behold.
Red pencils are great, but all pencils are. And if you ever see any of the Loreto tetra species, they grow into amazing schooling fishes.

Two heaters (200w) are a good idea. I switched out of an Amazon set-up in my 120 to reduce heater use, but found two heaters essential.

If you aren't a geographic tank purist, please plant it. African plants work better than most SA ones as they need less light. You could use Cryptocorynes from Asia, Anubias from Africa, java ferns and such to be undemanding for care but to give the fish a greater sense of security (and increase their beauty). I have never trimmed any of those plants. I just water them.

[bae3]

Wonderful project!

One question -- what is your tap water like? If it's very hard, some of the fish that prefer softer water may not do as well as you'd like. If you don't have soft tap water, avoid 'black water' species.

Panaques are big robust messy fish, and IIRC have to have wood to chew on. They may be out of proportion to the rest of your fish, and may stir things up too much when they move around at night, stressing the other fish.

Plant will grow in sand. Your fish will be less stressed with plants around them and will look even more beautiful. Mosses and Java fern attached to driftwood don't require a lot of light and are easy to do. A few big swordplants would look spectacular. Just start with small swordplants... Your tank isn't very deep, so intense lighting isn't required. Note that plants will outcompete algae, if there are enough of them.

Apistos will appreciate caves and other cover so they can stake out territories for themselves. You want to break up sight lines on the bottom, so they can each have their little area where they don't have to see the guy next door.

[GaryofMontreal]

All your ideas would work.
I can't see pencils without plants - they might hug the surface a lot. If fish have somewhere to hide, they don't always hide. Their behavior is coloured by the fact that all their neighbours want to eat them.

One trick that I like is to use the terrestrial plant pictured, which will grow a huge root system into the tank. The fish really like it to move through, and it looks interesting on top of the tank. It takes nutrients from the water, and looks interesting.
These are snapshots of my 120 - the camera was beside the computer, which is beside the tank so I took them just now. You can see decent plant growth (and dirty glass) with three screw in 23 watt fluorescents as the only lighting. The substrate is sand.
2390

2391


I hate Panaque's, as they rasp the wood too much and are very messy. But that's a personal taste - they are neat fish with good filters.

[Pamelajo]

2390


Gary can you take a pic of this whole plant?

[PinkPunisher]

Answers are in bold

Wonderful project!

One question -- what is your tap water like? If it's very hard, some of the fish that prefer softer water may not do as well as you'd like. If you don't have soft tap water, avoid 'black water' species.

My tap what is around 7 pH I don't know my kH or gH at this moment but I'm gonna check it out. I was also planning on adding either Indian Almond leaves or dried Oak leaves to help lower my pH. Maybe even add some peat moss to the filters. A RO unit is a possible purchase as well in the future, that way I'll have a lower TDS as well. Worse comes to worse I'll just make a blackwater tup and I'll use that water for water changes.

Panaques are big robust messy fish, and IIRC have to have wood to chew on. They may be out of proportion to the rest of your fish, and may stir things up too much when they move around at night, stressing the other fish.

I made sure to check it out before hand and L204 stay quite small ( for a Panaque that is! haha) around 5" is there max. Would this still be a problem? I'm not to worries about the wood to be honest, its easy enough to get more. If not the L204 what about some Bushy Nose plecos? I'm mainly just going for a lot of variety in this tank so everytime you look its almost as if theres a new fish.

Plant will grow in sand. Your fish will be less stressed with plants around them and will look even more beautiful. Mosses and Java fern attached to driftwood don't require a lot of light and are easy to do. A few big swordplants would look spectacular. Just start with small swordplants... Your tank isn't very deep, so intense lighting isn't required. Note that plants will outcompete algae, if there are enough of them.

Alright, I'll deffinately give it a go!

Apistos will appreciate caves and other cover so they can stake out territories for themselves. You want to break up sight lines on the bottom, so they can each have their little area where they don't have to see the guy next door.

I was thinking tons of driftwood, whether that be a few big pieces or a crap ton of small branches I haven't quite decided yet though. Would that work well?

[PinkPunisher]

Answers are in bold.

All your ideas would work.
I can't see pencils without plants - they might hug the surface a lot. If fish have somewhere to hide, they don't always hide. Their behavior is coloured by the fact that all their neighbours want to eat them.

Alrighty, plants are a must then.

One trick that I like is to use the terrestrial plant pictured, which will grow a huge root system into the tank. The fish really like it to move through, and it looks interesting on top of the tank. It takes nutrients from the water, and looks interesting.
These are snapshots of my 120 - the camera was beside the computer, which is beside the tank so I took them just now. You can see decent plant growth (and dirty glass) with three screw in 23 watt fluorescents as the only lighting. The substrate is sand.

Okay, looks neat. I might try it later on!


2390

2391


I hate Panaque's, as they rasp the wood too much and are very messy. But that's a personal taste - they are neat fish with good filters.

As I said above I might just switch them to Bushy Nose because the purpose of this tank, while to look nice, is mainly for a variety of colourful or unique fish.

[PinkPunisher]

Alright so here is another update of the stock list, I was told on another site that it was stocked quite lightly and to add more characins. So I've added quite a few, what are you guys/girls opinion on it?

8 Apistogramma baenschi "Inka"

35 Bleher's Rummynose Tetra (Hemigrammus bleheri)

40 Cardinal Tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi)

30 Ulrey's Tetra (Hemigrammus ulreyi)

25 Three-Lined Pencilfish (Nannostomus trifasciatus)

15 Marble Hatchet (Carnegiella strigata)

9x Panda Cory (Corydoras panda)

9x Julii Cory (Cordydoras julii)

3 Whiptail/Twig Catfish (Farlowella acus)

2 Flash Pleco (L204) (Panaque sp.)
OR
2 Ringlet Pleco (Panaque maccus)
OR
2 Bristlenose/Bushynose Plecos (Ancistrus spp.)

1 Spotted/Marbled Hoplo (Megalechis thoracata)

I also found quite an interesting site that is like a smart stock list, you pick the fish you want and the amount and it will compile all the info to give a general recommend pH, temp, etc definately worth checking out!

http://aqadvisor.com/

Spencer

[GaryofMontreal]

I don't want to be too graphic, but a catfish that eats wood has to expel wood. It's pretty amazing to have a fish pooping wood shavings all over your tank... it kind of took me by surprise when I actually saw it as opposed to knowing about it.

That will be a spectacular tank with a lot of delicate fish. The only thing I'd worry about, since they are so delicate, is quarantine as you build. You'd hate to drop something in with the last fish added....

[Melody]

If you haven't seen it already, Spencer, this (http://fish.mongabay.com/biotope.htm) is an awesome resource for biotope aquariums.

[PinkPunisher]

I don't want to be too graphic, but a catfish that eats wood has to expel wood. It's pretty amazing to have a fish pooping wood shavings all over your tank... it kind of took me by surprise when I actually saw it as opposed to knowing about it.

That will be a spectacular tank with a lot of delicate fish. The only thing I'd worry about, since they are so delicate, is quarantine as you build. You'd hate to drop something in with the last fish added....

Ahahahah thank you for that, made my day :)

Yes I definately agree with you there, I've been thinking of picking a UV sterilizer. Could I place one on the tank and then introduce healthy looking specimens into the tank without worrying about them infesting everyone else?

[PinkPunisher]

If you haven't seen it already, Spencer, this (http://fish.mongabay.com/biotope.htm) is an awesome resource for biotope aquariums.

I have been to that website but had forgotten about it, thank you :)

Also on a side note, has any here ever tried to lower there pH with Sodium bisulfate? It is commonly used in pools to lower the pH. All it does is create a chemical reaction upon mixing with water causing Sulfuric acid to be produced and as you all know Sulfuric acid has a low pH. In short it lowers the pH quite easily. I've been thinking of using this to lower my pH and just keep it in a tub under the tank. This would allow me to have a low pH without the having to get a ton of tannins in the water. I haven't looked into how much it would cost but from Amazon it is about $35 for 15lbs of the stuff and I would imagine that would last me quite some time!

Spencer

[GaryofMontreal]

The problem with acidifying water is twofold: you start pH bouncing with every water change, and you waste time and money. That's my theory:spinny:

I come at this as a onetime Apistogramma breeder. I've bred close to thirty species, described or undescribed. I very quickly learned that pH is a marker for your water, but not a goal in itself. Apistogramma njisseni is reported from pH 4.5 to 5, in water with no measurable hardness. I could breed wild-caughts two weeks after arrival at pH 6.8 to 7.0, if I was below 60ppm on my cheap reagent hardness test kit. At 40 ppm, it was dead easy. The same pattern repeated itself with other rainforest species, including those of West Africa.
When I mixed RO with my well buffered tap, it bounced right to 7, added acids or not. But using RO, melted snow or rain meant easy breeding, provided I did the usual basic stuff. PPM was everything, pH was nothing.

So dumping acids in is probably worthless. Depending on your tap, it could even be fatal. Central Montreal tapwater, from limestone reservoirs, was a consistent 7.4 to 7.6. I could pour sulphuric acid in and drive it to 4.5. Ten minutes later? 7.4 to 7.6 again. That could be nasty.

I think older books focused on pH because it was easy to measure. More than anything, you have to go for stability. It's dead easy to harden water, but quite a job to soften it.

[PinkPunisher]

The problem with acidifying water is twofold: you start pH bouncing with every water change, and you waste time and money. That's my theory:spinny:

Wouldn't I get a pH swing simply by doing a water change if I have Almond leaves, Oak leaves, driftwood, or peat moss as well then?

I come at this as a onetime Apistogramma breeder. I've bred close to thirty species, described or undescribed. I very quickly learned that pH is a marker for your water, but not a goal in itself. Apistogramma njisseni is reported from pH 4.5 to 5, in water with no measurable hardness. I could breed wild-caughts two weeks after arrival at pH 6.8 to 7.0, if I was below 60ppm on my cheap reagent hardness test kit. At 40 ppm, it was dead easy. The same pattern repeated itself with other rainforest species, including those of West Africa.
When I mixed RO with my well buffered tap, it bounced right to 7, added acids or not. But using RO, melted snow or rain meant easy breeding, provided I did the usual basic stuff. PPM was everything, pH was nothing.

Here comes a slew of questions, hope you don't mind...

So your saying I should aim for hardness not pH?

What do you mean by well buffered tap? Buffered from you adding buffers or some the city adding them?

An RO unit makes "pure" water so it would make sense for it to be 7 even if you had added acids before hand, but maybe I'm not understanding something there. It made breeding easy because there was a low general hardness in the water, correct?

So dumping acids in is probably worthless. Depending on your tap, it could even be fatal. Central Montreal tapwater, from limestone reservoirs, was a consistent 7.4 to 7.6. I could pour sulphuric acid in and drive it to 4.5. Ten minutes later? 7.4 to 7.6 again. That could be nasty.

What would cause it to go back up? The whole purpose of adding the acid is to "suck up" the kH making it possible to lower the pH, so unless you added more tap water or a base it shouldn't have gone back up? Again maybe I'm just not reading something right here haha

I think older books focused on pH because it was easy to measure. More than anything, you have to go for stability. It's dead easy to harden water, but quite a job to soften it.

So maybe I shouldn't play with my water at all then? and yes I've found that out by researching this all day! haha

Spencer

[Ursus sapien]

great thread,
4 things from my tanks: the Hydor inline heater works great, no spikes, no creep; you can grow great plants in sand; if you do use floaters, use big rather than small; farlowellas suffer when harrased, either from hitting the glass when fleeing or from reduced feeding.

[bae3]

So maybe I shouldn't play with my water at all then? and yes I've found that out by researching this all day! haha


Where are you? First find out what kind of tap water you have. Your municipality can send you an analysis of what they're putting in the water mains, or if it has a web page, it may have the analysis on line.

The critical factor for black water fish is less hardness than TDS (total dissolved solids) which is sometimes expressed as conductivity (in microSiemens).

It's best not to mess with your water because (1) abrupt changes in pH, hardness or TDS are hard on your fish and (2) if you can do water changes with plain dechlorinated tap water, water changes are much easier and you'll do more of them. If your water is way out of line, you might want to reconsider the type of fish you keep. Except for real extreme blackwater species, most fish will do well in water that's harder than they prefer in nature, as long as it's clean. Lower TDS water may only be required for breeding.

But there's no point in discussing it further until we know what comes out of your tap, or at least where you are geographically.

[PinkPunisher]

great thread,
4 things from my tanks: the Hydor inline heater works great, no spikes, no creep; you can grow great plants in sand; if you do use floaters, use big rather than small; farlowellas suffer when harrased, either from hitting the glass when fleeing or from reduced feeding.

Glad to know I'll be getting a quality heater. By floaters you mean floating plants? Do you think there is anything in the tank that would harass them?

Spencer

[PinkPunisher]

Where are you? First find out what kind of tap water you have. Your municipality can send you an analysis of what they're putting in the water mains, or if it has a web page, it may have the analysis on line.

The critical factor for black water fish is less hardness than TDS (total dissolved solids) which is sometimes expressed as conductivity (in microSiemens).

It's best not to mess with your water because (1) abrupt changes in pH, hardness or TDS are hard on your fish and (2) if you can do water changes with plain dechlorinated tap water, water changes are much easier and you'll do more of them. If your water is way out of line, you might want to reconsider the type of fish you keep. Except for real extreme blackwater species, most fish will do well in water that's harder than they prefer in nature, as long as it's clean. Lower TDS water may only be required for breeding.

But there's no point in discussing it further until we know what comes out of your tap, or at least where you are geographically.

Geographically I'm 30 minutes from the city of Ottawa. My pH if I remember correctly was around 7.4-7.8 I think.. I'll need to re-test it tomorrow. Here is the water quality report from 2009, hope you can make more sense out of it then I can. Annual Report 2009 (http://northdundas.com/locgovt/corprate/watereps/winchstr/2009AnnualReportWinchW.pdf)

Spencer

[bae3]

Geographically I'm 30 minutes from the city of Ottawa. My pH if I remember correctly was around 7.4-7.8 I think.. I'll need to re-test it tomorrow. Here is the water quality report from 2009, hope you can make more sense out of it then I can. Annual Report 2009 (http://northdundas.com/locgovt/corprate/watereps/winchstr/2009AnnualReportWinchW.pdf)

Spencer

Hm. That's the report on how safe the water us, i.e. toxic metals, pesticides, sewage bacteria, etc. I don't see the water analysis on the web site. You'll have to phone them up. Ideally they can send you a complete analysis, but if you can get the hardness, alkalinity and TDS from them in mg/l or ppm, that would help a lot. If they don't have the TDS, ask for the conductivity in microSiemens. If the person you talk to on the phone doesn't understand what you want to know, ask to talk to the people at the lab. Explain that you want the info for your aquarium. Civil servants sometimes get their backs up because they listen to so many complaints, they assume you've got a grievance or an axe to grind...

Your water comes from wells, and the analysis may not be the same for each well. There's no guessing what your water is like. IIRC, your geology is a thick layer of fine sediments overlaying the Smith Falls Limestone Plain, with Precambrian bedrock under that. The water could be quite different depending on how deep the wells are. Municipalities often raise the pH of the tap water above 7 to reduce leaching of lead and copper from plumbing.

Your water and sewage treatment is contracted out to OCWA. You could go to their web site and fill in the contact form to ask them to send you the info, if your local people don't have it. www.ocwa.com

[GaryofMontreal]

Winchester? You'll have to check - I used to live south-east of there, closer to Cornwall, and the water was terrible for South American fish. I was in a small town called Avonmore, and also spent time in Saint Isadore. The water was Central American in its hardness. But we were drawing from wells - I hope your source is a different one.

By the way, thanks to Bae3 - you're a source of information on a lot of fascinating things - botany and now geology.

[bae3]

By the way, thanks to Bae3 - you're a source of information on a lot of fascinating things - botany and now geology.

Thanks, Gary, but I'm not always right, you know!

Spencer, I just thought of a quick test for whether your water is hard: do people in your town commonly use water softeners, the whole-house kind that use big bags of salt? If so, your water supply is significantly hard. Water that comes out of such a softener is terrible for soft water fish, but you won't know it if you test it with a kit from the aquarium store because the softener replaces hardness minerals (calcium and magnesium) with sodium. Ideally your drinking water bypasses the softener, but these things aren't always set up right.

[PinkPunisher]

Thanks, Gary, but I'm not always right, you know!

Spencer, I just thought of a quick test for whether your water is hard: do people in your town commonly use water softeners, the whole-house kind that use big bags of salt? If so, your water supply is significantly hard. Water that comes out of such a softener is terrible for soft water fish, but you won't know it if you test it with a kit from the aquarium store because the softener replaces hardness minerals (calcium and magnesium) with sodium. Ideally your drinking water bypasses the softener, but these things aren't always set up right.

Whether other people do or not I'm not sure, I know we do though.. I've come up with a hopeful plan though to safely maintain a soft acid water though, without the use of chemicals.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=33315.0

It is a blackwater generator, by the sounds of it I'll be using a lot of peat and what not to lower it but if I can do it I should be able to maintain it quite easily. The plan is to use a large rubbermaid bin, fill a pillow case with peat, pine cones, alder cones, oak leaves, and whatever else I can find that lowers pH then add a powerhead to the bin to keep the water circulating, maybe add a heater to make water changes even easier. I'd love to hear every ones thoughts on that.

Spencer

[GaryofMontreal]

I hate to see you having this problem, because you have clearly done some serious research to look before you leap.

I have used the peat trick - I did it for years. I could fill a 20 gallon tub with half its volume in peat. Once it started sinking (2 weeks), I had a soft water generator. If I poured in pH 7.4, 140 ppm water, for about 12 weeks, I could remove pH 6.8, 40-60 ppm water at about 5 gallons per time.
The water was dark brown at first, lightening with use. It took several tubs, smelled and was a pain in the butt to deal with for warm tanks (my basement, the only place I could put such a large set-up, was 18c - my Apisto tanks were 25). Plus, cleaning out the tubs was brutal, when they needed to be recharged. I admit, I hung in for 2 years, but found rain and snow better (when it rained and snowed). Then I bit the bullet for RO.

Once you play with the water, you quadruple the work you have to do. You can spend more time doctoring water than enjoying fish. Sometimes, you are better to roll with the punches.

You don't like plants. You have eastern Ontario liquid rock flowing from the tap. You could create a Central American paradise for fish with little more than standard water changes.

There are pretty small cichlids, great wild-type Xiphophorus, endangered or extinct Goodeids, all adapted to your water. When I lived in your region, I ended up keeping nothing but livebearers, although I didn't have access to the cool wild ones.

I'm just brainstorming, but am basing it on a longtime desire to keep fish that hated my local water.Also, I keep killies and livebearers now, and have come to really enjoy all the weird wild-type swordtails, platies, mollies and Goodeids.

[Melody]

Whether other people do or not I'm not sure, I know we do though.. I've come up with a hopeful plan though to safely maintain a soft acid water though, without the use of chemicals.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=33315.0

It is a blackwater generator, by the sounds of it I'll be using a lot of peat and what not to lower it but if I can do it I should be able to maintain it quite easily. The plan is to use a large rubbermaid bin, fill a pillow case with peat, pine cones, alder cones, oak leaves, and whatever else I can find that lowers pH then add a powerhead to the bin to keep the water circulating, maybe add a heater to make water changes even easier. I'd love to hear every ones thoughts on that.

Spencer

It may be easier to use a Fluval and peat pellets - they're concentrated and easier to measure once you know your recipe. I'd be interested to know your KH reading, as that will determine how much your water will fight your efforts, resulting in fluctuations. You can have acidic water while still having hard water otherwise. I think it was Practical Fishkeeping that finally proved that, although veterans had figured it out long before.

Your tap water shouldn't be intercepted by the softener, but finding out if it is or not would be a good first step. You can always change it if it does so I wouldn't call it a brick wall. To soften water suitably for fish, we need to replace ions as opposed to exchanging ions with sodium like that type of softener does. Adding too much sodium can cause metabolic issues in the fish, which is why I'm familiar with it. Distilled, rain water and reverse osmosis are most often used with fish, but other than rain water I know very little about those options.

I would check with the hobbyists in your area, either through a club meeting or in their forum, and find out who keeps the fish you want to keep and how/if they do it successfully. We can't always provide the precise wild environment, but fish can still thrive if they're some of the more adaptable species. Others will suffer for it. Good luck!

[PinkPunisher]

I think I'm gonna give if it a fair go with the black water generator, I'll aim for a pH of around 6 or so.

I'll have to try collecting rain from now, might be good to supplement into black water just to help lower the TDS a bit more. Are you glad you bought the RO unit? Any disapointments about it?

Thats why I'm gonna try the tub, might help save me some time as I can just fill it and forget about it.

I do like plants, its just with the biotope I'm going for there aren't a lot of plants. Technically some of the fish I have come from a very veggie area but I just don't have the money to slap down on making a high tech planted system. If I was to though the CO2 would actually lower my pH quite a bit as well.

I've done CA before and while I did like it, I'd love to try a bit more challenging setup. I had a wonderful african biotope before but then a stray piece of driftwood leached out something and killed EVERY fish... So I wanna get back on the horse as they say!

Spencer

[Melody]

I hope you'll post some pictures when you have it set up. :Smile:

[bae3]

Buy yourself a chemical kit to test for hardness and alkalinity. This will help you figure out how well (and if) your peat moss setup is working, and to keep tank water parameters fairly constant. Or get a conductivity meter.

Another possibility is rainbow fish. The blue-eye group (Pseudomugil spp and some others) are tiny brightly colored fish that are active and display to each other a lot. Many of them come from relatively hard water habitats, often marshy ones, so your pile of driftwood would work well.

If you can find out how hard your water really is, there may well be some SA fish that can hack it. Species from the eastern slopes of the Andes and the SE flowing waters of central SA are adapted to harder water than many Amazonian spp. Apisto. cacatuoides and A. borelli are fish of this sort. Also, some of the southern cories, like C.paleatus come from the south, as well as some tetras. The common bushynose pleco seems to be very adaptable, too. People keep and breed them in rift lake tanks.

Gary and some of the members from the prairies will know more about which spp can hack hard water than I do.

High tech planted set ups are expensive and require a lot of ongoing effort. Low tech ones are easier than plantless tanks, and cost very little. If you pick suitable plants and don't use intense light,you can have a beautiful tank without CO2 or added fertilizer.

[Ursus sapien]

Glad to know I'll be getting a quality heater. By floaters you mean floating plants? Do you think there is anything in the tank that would harass them?

Spencer

sorry, yes, floating plants.

not specifically, my response was a general answer to the question in the following quote:
" Should I worry about anyone bugging the Farlowella's or will they just move to a new area if bugged?"

[PinkPunisher]

Hey everyone, so after much thought on this subject I think I'm gonna go with a CA tank now. As much as I loved the sound of the Amazon biotope its just not worth the time at this point. So I'll be stocking the tank with larger Central American cichlids. If you wanna help me stock it then please follow my new thread in the cichlid section.

Spencer

[CACAdmin]

Sometimes these decisions are hard to come to because we have an idea about what we'd really like to have and it's a trade-off in how much work and cost is involved to achieve our dream tank or whether to find a new dream (which is more feasible) and go with that. Given your water, I think your choice will increase you chances of success.