annual and non annual killies in your club BAP

[Dan_G_Calgary]

So, curious how different clubs manage killies (especially annuals) in the BAP.

I suspect the standard answer is that
breeder has the adults that lay the eggs,
eggs hatch and follow the normal 'spot at 10 days', spot at 60.

So do you do 3 spottings?

If a person buys the eggs then hatches them, do those fry NOT qualify for the BAP? Do you then have to raise them up, fulfill the full cycle as described above? I would think yes, but wondering.

[OldMan]

It is a question that I have yet to face as my club's BAP chair. It is a very interesting question though. One of the basic principles of a BAP program is that the member doing the breeding and the club can learn from each qualified breeding. Under what conditions do the fish breed? How long to hatch / drop? How do the fry get fed? How long to reach a resale size?
To answer the typical questions that lead to BAP points would probably mean at least a full cycle to the point of starting the second generation with a fertilized breeding. That would bring things back to where it all started with the eggs arriving.

[pyro]

I will resurrect this thread.
I have been my clubs BAP Chair on and off and I will admit that I am very old school about BAP. My club now accepts photos posted on our forum as a first inspection (I voted against this).
I would want to see the parents who have spawned in your aquariums along with your first inspection. We actually have a rule that states you must own the parent fish for a minimum of 60 days prior to a first inspection.

[Dan_G_Calgary]

Don't know what I was thinking about when I posted that, as it now doesn't make sense to me. Odd.

What I meant was, with annuals you are likely to be hatching the eggs WAY after the parents are dead and in the mulch pile. How do you 'spot' the parents in annuals.

So in your case Pyro, it seems you are recomending a 4 spotting. First the parents must be proven to have been in my care for 2 months. Second spotting when I collect eggs, to see that I have the parents. Third spotting when the eggs hatch, the finally spotting them at 60 days.

I have a hard time getting some one who lives down the street from me over to spot fish. haha! 4 spotting? OMG. Our BAP is a ghost town as it is. I think there are maybe 4 active breeders on the BAP in Calgary and 3 of them are on this forum! (me, FCG and Vince).

It would be impressive if your club was active enough to support that program.

[pyro]

We have only two inspections.
The first inspection is when you show the parents and the fry as soon after hatching (now by photo :mad: )
The second is 60 days later.

There is no way to verify the fish have been in the hobbyists possesion for 60 days but, hey... it is in the rules to discourage abusers.

In the case of annual killies, I had N guentheri spawning and was getting fry well before the adults died.

[Dan_G_Calgary]

In the case of annual killies,N. guentheri is probably easier than most mop spawners, and is not typical of most annuals.

lifespan close to a year, incubation period as low as 2 weeks according to some sources.

http://www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=guenthersnotho

http://www.petfish.net/articles/Killifish/gue.php

That is not the typical annual, and not the fish that would create the issue I have raised.
Rachovi for example have an incubation period of up to 6 months, and a life span roughly that. Most annuals that I am working on tend to look like ancients after 4 months.

[pyro]

Killies aren't that common here in Ontario. I have just read that a couple of guys from the old CKA are trying to start the (or maybe "a") killie club again. I wish them well but I can't dedicate time to two clubs at this time.
You have raised an interesting point. Our BAP does not address this probably as nobody is keeping these fish. I think in this age, maybe photos of the parents would be acceptable. How else could you do it unless you had a third inspection?
1st - parents and collecting of eggs
2nd - newly hatched fry
3rd - fry at 60 days
I think this is acceptable. Your thoughts?

[Dan_G_Calgary]

Dunno.

Honor system is one answer. (Which si similar to what you have in your club with the owning for 60 days. that would be the honor system)
Pictures as your club has gone to would also work
Freezing the parents in a bag for inspection.

All of this relies heavily on personal honor and really if someone wants to 'cheat' the system it's quite easy. I am more interested in what solutions people have found to ENCOURAGE the breeding of various types of fish as opposed to discouraging.

The fellow Vince got the chocolate Australes from breeds all kinds of killies and livebearers but has told me directly that he cannot be bothered to put anything in the BAP because it is just too much trouble to get them spotted.
I was looking for solutions to encourage and grow a club, not ways to 'catch cheaters'. That sounds like the path that your club is taking with allowing photos on the first spotting - encouraging growth by minimizing hassle.

There's a lot to be said for 'old ways' but there are also things that just die due to lack of change and growth with the times. Ask anyone who bought shares in the wagon wheel business when Ford was figuring out how to mass produce autos. :laugh:

[pyro]

We don't usually have issues with inspections as we are heavily populated and most major cities have clubs.
I should put you in touch with our club BAP chair as he is new to the position (not the club) and is trying to figure out how to promote the program better.
I'm glad I read this post. I will have the converstion with Cam (our BAP chair) over the holidays.
Anyone else have a comment?

[OldMan]

Dan, the difficulty you see getting someone over to look at your fish is exactly why we now accept pictures at each stage. I will accept any sequence of pictures that is enough for me to know that the fish was actually bred and the fry raised. Some clubs go one step further and require that you actually donate some fry to the next club auction, but we have not gone that far.

[Chris Sinclair]

Killies aren't that common here in Ontario. I have just read that a couple of guys from the old CKA are trying to start the (or maybe "a") killie club again. I wish them well but I can't dedicate time to two clubs at this time.
You have raised an interesting point. Our BAP does not address this probably as nobody is keeping these fish. I think in this age, maybe photos of the parents would be acceptable. How else could you do it unless you had a third inspection?
1st - parents and collecting of eggs
2nd - newly hatched fry
3rd - fry at 60 days
I think this is acceptable. Your thoughts?

I am wondering which couple of guys are thinking about starting another killifish club. I have had several people ask me about it, but no one seemed too serious.

[pyro]

John V.R. posted it here...

http://www.kwas.ca/forum/showthread.php?18542-New-Killi-club

[Chris Sinclair]

Killies aren't that common here in Ontario.

With a little luck I will help change that. I am up to 20 different varieties now (not including eggs I have obtained) and I always try to breed everything I have. Hopefully by spring I will have quite a few available.

[Chris Sinclair]

John V.R. posted it here...

http://www.kwas.ca/forum/showthread.php?18542-New-Killi-club

Thanks. I guess maybe John was serious after all.

[pyro]

I have a few varieties as well and hope to add more. I am going to start with easy ones and work up. Your focus was the Aphyosemions when the CKA was running if I remember correctly.

[Chris Sinclair]

Yes, but I always keep some from other groups as well in order to gain more experience.