Natural Planted Tank (NPT - Walstad-type)

[Laura]

My son decided that he wanted an african dwarf frog, so after the usual pre-pet discussions we set up a spare 5 gallon.

I told him that we could try an NPT, but it meant that he couldn't get the frog right away - the advantage being that he didn't have to do as much maintenance on the tank. We set it up according to the directions here http://thegab.org/Plants/step-by-step-setting-up-a-walstad-type-natural-planted-tank.html

We added some pond snails, MTS and established filter media and let it go for a week. The parameters tested fine, so we got some ghost shrimp and an ADF on Sunday.

It's my first attempt at a tank with soil, but I like the premise. We'll see how it turns out. If it goes well, at least I won't have to bug my child to do water changes (or not too often anyways)

The ADF seems to be having some problems with its foot. I'm keeping an eye on the ghost shrimp, but haven't ever seen them behave aggressively to something as large as an ADF.

They are ghost shrimp and not the long armed shrimp that they get mixed up with. The poor froggy came from less than ideal conditions though, so it may be a delayed problem.

We'll feed him full of bloodworms and keep an eye on the little fella.

[Melody]

Very cool, I find the whole concept intriguing and will enjoy following your progress. :Smile:

[Cashmere_socks]

awesome :) I hope to hear he gets better.

[CACAdmin]

This is definitely going to be interesting to follow. Also please keep us posted on how the little frog is doing.

[Piker]

I always thought soil would create an algae bloom. Hopefully those planted suck up the nutrients quick!!

[sass]

Nice looking tank, love the skull theme:Smile: .
Great idea with going for a Walstad, I wish I had been that smart when
my son had his tank. Weekly maintenance turned into a nightmare. I finally relented and put the fish in one of my tanks.
Hopefully with your great care the ADF will turn around health wise.
Look forward to pics down the road.

[OldMan]

This tank is one I set up using the instructions in Diana's book, not exactly like your link but close enough. It has been running for 4 years now with a water change every 6 months whether it needs it or not. I used a similar cheapest available potting soil to avoid the potential of the manufacturer including any ferts. I also wet my planting soil before adding any gravel. Mine has a gravel cap about an inch thick on top of the potting soil and the plants are planted through it and into the potting soil. I feed my fish generously every day and figure that any excess food simply becomes fertilizer as it breaks down. I am running about 2.5 watts per gallon over a 40 gallon breeder so the lighting is not low light by any means. A tip from one of my fellow club members is to start by placing almost any kind of low plastic tray under the potting soil. Nothing smells quite as bad as a mature NPT that is being broken down, so the trays come in handy for easily removing the old potting soil. As you can tell, this is not a lightly populated tank.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll251/Oldman1947/Plants/XenotaeniaCrop.jpg

When I first set it up, the tank contained duckweed, a dozen or so vals and a couple of low light plants. The duckweed has died off from a lack of nutrients and the vals have reproduced to a significant extent.

[Laura]

What a beautiful forest of plants! Is that a tall crypt behind the val?

Sadly Senor Longbottom (froggy) passed on today. I wasn't too surprised as he seemed thin and fragile, but thought he was on the mend.

My betta from work is vacationing over the hols in the tank for now, and we'll get a couple of frogs over the weekend. My betta isn't particularly aggressive, so if he behaves well he can stay for the hols otherwise I'll relocate him.

[Laura]

I always thought soil would create an algae bloom. Hopefully those planted suck up the nutrients quick!!

I think that this is a premise of the tank when you first set it up is to stuff it with plants - I put in several rooted plants but didn't have quite enough so it's packed with water lettuce and najas grass. I'll take them out when the plants get a good foothold.

Update.
We got some new plants and 2 frogs. All is looking good so far. I was worried about adding stem plants later as I thought it would kick up soil, but it's all been good. I've done a couple of big water changes in the early stages. I haven't been testing the water, but the shrimp seem fine and they would be the 'canary in the coalmine'.

I gotta say, the lack of fussing with this tank will rock. It's the way to go with any kid or office tank. Heck, I think it's the way to go with mine too...

I guess this should be moved to 'tank builds' as it's a project - sorry, I forgot about that heading when I posted.

[luckysarah]

Reading all this information about soil substrates makes me want to rip my tank apart to add some.

Will have to try it with the next one...

But I was wondering if orchid substrate would work the same way?
Its not soil but a mix of peat/bark/pearlite (although mostly bark).... it would probably sink better and make less of a mess.

[CACAdmin]

Laura, I moved your thread here as suggested.

Sorry although I don't know anything about using soils in a tank (I'm reading with interest) I might be concerned about the bark in the orchid substrate and what oils the bark contains that might leach into the water.:confused:

[luckysarah]

Its fir bark.... don't know about the oils.......

It would look pretty cool though.

[Laura]

Thanks Jay for the move!

Keep in mind that I'm really new at this, but I suspect the bark would be bad as the stuff I've read talks about using the most basic soil you can find - no additives, no fertilizer, nothing fancy and they even say to pick out the larger pieces of bark etc.

There is also some info on mineralized soil - breaking down the soil even further through heating and drying before using it in the tank. Given that, I think it would be counterproductive to put big chunks of stuff in the substrate.

If you're interested in reading more, there's a great forum that D. Walstad is a member of. The stickies are great and you should at least give them a read http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/

[OldMan]

I should have linked to that forum when I first posted Laura. Diana has changed her mind a bit on details compared to when she wrote her book but even doing things "by the book" works out quite nicely. I am also Oldman over there but I seldom post on that forum.

[Laura]

So something is amiss - I need to do more research and water testing.

We lost the frogs over xmas (read as one very sad child) and my work betta also died in the tank before we left for the hols.

The plants look fantastic, and weirdly enough the shrimp are doing fine.

If there were unstable water conditions, and my assumption is that is the problem, then I thought the shrimp would have been the `canary in the coalmine`.

I have done some water changes, but perhaps not enough for a new tank of this style.

[CACAdmin]

Sorry to hear you lost the frogs and the betta over Christmas. Your poor son, he must have been really upset... kids take thing hard (but thankfully, they usually get over it fairly quickly). I hope you get to the bottom of what happened because I'm sure he's really eager to have another frog.

[Laura]

Thanks Jay - yeah, he was pretty upset and Im hesitant to get him anything else until I sort it out. I may just gravel vac out all the soil and go traditional - its too hard on him when he loses a critter.

I tested all the parameters and they seem fine
Ammonia = 0
NitrIte = 0
NitrAte = 5
PH = 7

Its weird as they just seem to have up and died, certainly the betta showed no distress during the day, and in the evening he was on his side with frayed fins. The frogs looked fine too - except for the fact they were dead. I havent gone on a proper shrimp hunt as the plants have really grown in - but did see one, and the snails are all fine.

If anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear them.

[vince0]

could it be that the frog in question was just in bad health to begin with?

[Laura]

Thats what I told my son, but I dont think its the case.
The only thing that I can think is that theres something in the soil that impacts vertebrates.

[vince0]

does the bag list copper as one of the ferts? Also, just fyi, frogs are amphybians not invertebrates lol

[Laura]

Thanks for the reply.
There isnt supposed to be any ferts added - AFAIK and according to the bag, its just topsoil.

It is the inverts in the tank (snails and shrimp) that seem to be fine, while the vertebrates (frogs and fish) arent making it for some reason.

Its very frustrating as the plant growth is amazing! Ill try talking to the folks at the forum previously linked to and see if they have any ideas.

It would be disappointing to tear it down, but I cant keep getting critters that die - its not fair to them, or my munchkin.

[Melody]

What a shame to have such a rocky start. I know very little about the concept and even less about frogs, but I hope you're able to figure it all out. I've been told that if there are too many plants they can reduce the oxygen levels too much at night, but I don't know how much truth there is to it. Snails could compensate with atmospheric air... but then again, the Betta should be able to do that too.

[Laura]

Update - I posted with the folks at aquaticplantcentral and got a response that you can see below. They suggest that the problem was an ammonia spike from too much bioload and not enough bacteria to handle it in a fairly new tank.

Ill try out a small fish and see how things go before I get my son another pet for the tank. Ill need to take a picture to show you all the growth in a month - its pretty amazing.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/75794-npt-livestock-not-working-out-input.html#post573693

[Laura]

So the tank seems to have stabilized.
I tried a white cloud for a coupe of weeks who did fine, and I've had the a betta for several weeks - ammonia now tests at 0.

Here is a pic so you can see the plant growth.

I noticed that he seemed more prone to minor infections - he had a bout of fungus from a torn fin and a cloudy eye, but nothing that a good dose of coarse salt couldn't deal with. It could have been a result of the water parameters still being wonky.

I've already had to take out some plants as it was too jammed, but you can see that the growth is good.

[silvak]

Wow, it really has grown out! Good work! It's good to hear things are settling again. Are you planning on getting more frogs?

[CACAdmin]

Wow the plant growth is amazing. You definitely have a green thumb. Glad to hear things are settling down for you. Keep us posted as to how it goes.

[sass]

Great stuff Laura, your betta must be very happy, tank looks great!

[Laura]

you planning on getting more frogs?

I'm going to try and steer him towards a betta (the red one in the tank will come to work with me). I think he won't see the frogs as much as he will see the betta.

[silvak]

I like your thinking! But I have to admit, the frogs were cool.

[Laura]

Oh, I agree, they're very cool.
The other factor is that he really takes it to heart when a critter dies - he cried inconsolably for over an hour, blaming himself the whole time, when we found the frogs - it would just be too hard on him if we lost the froggies again.

At least I know fish - if they get something I can often fix it - not so much with frogs....

[WhiteDevil]

Hows the tank coming along? I am upgrading to a 75g and am really really contemplating an NPT set up, I have a wet/dry on there now with just lighting of 39wx2. Ive been reading on planted sites that these style tanks benefit greatly from natural sunlight pending you have floaters to beat the algae to the punch.


Im very curious in any and all NPT tanks on this site, please email me on here to let me know how your tanks are going, start up issues and longevity.

Thank you all very much.
Your finatic to the south, WD.

[susankat]

When I set mine up I was advised to let the tank run for 2 to 3 weeks with just the plants and maybe one hardy fish. That gives the soil to release anything that might be toxic and the plants usually have bacteria on them so that aids in your beneficial bacteria. Never lost a fish. And like oldman, mine ended up with hundreds of endlers.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/susankat/IMG_0200_edited.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y13/susankat/IMG_0467.jpg