sideways

[Tabby]

I've done the research on all the fish in my tank and they're all supposed to be peaceful. A few days ago I noticed a chunk taken out of my leaopard danio and yesterday my dwarf emerald rasbora died with his tail missing. Obviously one of the other fish is attacking them but which one? Are there any peaceful community fish that have these tendencies? The two biggest fish in the tank that could have possibly done this are a white skirt tetra and an albino terta. Any thoughts?

[vince0]

Would you mind elaboratig as to what kind of fish you keep so that we may identify the culprit?

Thanks

Vince

[Ursus sapien]

Would you mind elaboratig as to what kind of fish you keep so that we may identify the culprit?

Thanks

Vince
and in what ratios, also. Danios, for example, nip as part of their group communication, but in schools that's all it is. If you only have 1 or 2 or 3, they'll be desperate for schooling companions and will try to encourage other species to join in by ...nipping. The nipping behaviour can become so aggressive that the other fish are hurt.
Alternately, some fish get extremely passive alone, ie otos, and become targets.

[GaryofMontreal]

It's hard to say, because body size and mouth size can be different. How big is the tank, exactly what fish are in and at what numbers, and what albino tetra is it?
We can probably help you narrow down the list of suspects with more info.

[Tabby]

Okay so I have a 20 gallon and the fish currently in the tank are;
Zebra Danio
Golden Zebra Danio
Black Phantom Tetra
Leopard Danio
White Skirt Tetra
Albino Tetra
Rainbow Fish x2

[Melody]

Definitely crucial questions... but my money is already on the White Skirt - they can be nasty nippers, even in properly sized groups.

[Tabby]

Definitely crucial questions... but my money is already on the White Skirt - they can be nasty nippers, even in properly sized groups.

This is the one I've been suspecting as I've only had it in there for about a month or so and it's grown considerably since. Certain fish also seem to move away from the white skirt when it comes near, more so than any of the others.

[GaryofMontreal]

None of those fish should be kept alone, so nipping would, sadly, be expected. They're all sociable. I'm with Melody for the white skirt, but the albino makes me wonder. If it's the blind cave 'albino', then it is bad news.
Ursus has a good point about danios - any species of that group kept in groups of fewer than six can get nippy. I had a lone leftover zebra, (after ich had wiped her companions) that got very nasty until I got her proper companionship.
So, unfortunately, any one of those fish of kept out of a school could nip tankmates.

[Piker]

Tetras should definitely be grouped 6 or more of the same species. There are some exceptions like the Weitzman Tetra that do well alone but everything you listed does better with a large group of its own.

[Laura]

I had the same thought as Gary and was wondering if your albino fish was a blind cave fish.

I'm also experiencing what can happen when schooling fish aren't in the right numbers - it can get ugly fast.

[Tabby]

The albino is not a blind cave, it's a buenos aires.

[Melody]

I agree that groups are a requirement if you want practically any Tetra to play nice. All of your Tetras are inclined to nip, even in a group (just less). If you want the tank to work out, my suggestion would be to rehome the Tetras and either choose a single species to have a group of that isn't quite so nippy (like Red Cardinals or Neons), or go with other peaceful species that don't require a group.

[GaryofMontreal]

Buenos Aires are a nippy and aggressive species, even when kept in groups of six or more. I like them, but I only combine them with larger cichlids. I would never put them in a community.
I think we have the most likely suspect, right there.

[Tabby]

My fish are slowly dying and I no longer think it's by another fish. I just had another fish go this morning and there is another in the tank near the end as well. It's just all too coincidental that they would all be attacked in the EXACT same spot so now I'm clueless. They've all seemed to have what looks like a cut underneath and I don't think it's from any decorations in the tank as I hadn't added anything new. I had the water levels checked over the weekend and I was told they're all fine and the employee couldn't give me any reasons either. Does anyone now what's happening to my fish? It's a fairly slow process and I really don't know what to do.

[silvak]

It's starting to sound like an illness of some kind. Hmmmm.....it could be that the fish got stressed and then sick......? :Dunno:

[GaryofMontreal]

Most likely, if it isn't violence, it's a bacterial infection. I'm a bit of an antibiotics purist - if you don't know what you are treating, don't waste antibiotics/ risk creating resistant strains. Change water and take the hit.
It's ugly, and it was unavoidable. Odds are, the fish were carrying something maybe even before your store bought them. Keep the tank clean and reduce stress as much as possible.

[Piker]

Pics would help us help you.

[Laura]

Pics would be great, along with a synopsis of your tank and the problems.
If you are noticing suddenly missing tails or large chunks of tail on otherwise healthy fish, it doesn't sound like disease to me.

[Tabby]

I don't think I'd get a very good pic and it most likely wouldn't show anything which is why I'm having a hard time diagnosing. However, I have noticed a little more in the sickly fish I still have. It appears to have a cloudy clearish stuff trailing from the 'wounded' area and one of it's fins is clamped together, not clamped to it's side though. While it almost seems like it's doing better today than it was yesterday, I would like to find out some possiblities just in case it may be contagious.

[Tabby]

My White Skirt Tetra is starting to lean sideways when it's not swimming. I'm down to four fish from nine in the past two weeks and I have no idea whats going on, but it's slowly killing all of my fish. Could it just be stress? and if so, what can I do?

[CACAdmin]

Tabby, I moved your thread here in hopes that you'll get some help a little speedier so hopefully you don't lose any more fish. Are the 5 you lost also White Skirt Tetras? Also have you added anything new to the tank in the past month?

[Tabby]

I haven't added anything new and the last 5 I lost were a Black Phantom Tetra, a Rainbow fish, a Zebra Danio, a Leopard Danio, and a Dwarf Emerald Rasbora. Left in my tank, other than the White skirt, is a Buenos aires tetra, a rainbow fish, and a Golden Zebra Danio. Which are currently doing fine, but as I stated before, it's a very slow process and I fear that I I don't fix the problem, it'll happen to all of them eventually. I bought all of my fish from the same store, got three each time, and they seem to be dying almost in the order I got them (none of my original three are still living).

[CACAdmin]

Tabby, I merged the two threads so that we have all the discussion of your problem in one place as reference. You can try using the Fish Farmacy (http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/diseases.html) to attempt to figure out what's wrong with you fish.

I tend to think it's a bacterial infection (especially now that you have a tetra leaning sideways... usually indicative of a swim bladder problem. Swim bladder problems can be caused by bacterial infections.) Also, the fact that apparently healthy fish are getting sick over time and dying off in the order in which you purchased them suggests an incubation period once exposed to the bacteria.

I'm not sure what to suggest as a treatment because I've never had to treat for a bacterial infection. I wish I did as I hate to think of you loosing all those pretty fish. One thing, though, I recommend adding any new fish to the tank until you've managed to resolve the issue. Best of luck!

[Tabby]

Okay, so after doing some research on the net and having not too many symptoms relate, the only possiblitly I can deduce is mabe constipation. Should I be able to see each fish poop regularly? I've seen my Rainbow poop before, but can't recall any others and I'm sure they can die from constipation eventually. I read a remedy to constipation is more live foods for roughage, and I'm going to the store to get some today, but any other suggestions would be appreciated. I'll try almost anything at this point to keep the four I have left alive and healthy.

[CACAdmin]

If you're looking for a solution to constipation try feeding them peas (cooked, skinned, and quartered).

[Tabby]

So after doing yet again more research I have another possibility. What about gill parasites?

[Tabby]

So I'm feeding the fish peas to treat for possible constipation and I'll see what happens. But in the mean time I took some pics, a little out of focus, of the White Skirt for some opinions. It's fins are clamped together so I definitely know it's unhappy but I'm unsure of the color of it's gills since I can't recall what they looked like before. I've tried looking at other pics online, but they were no help. All of the other fishes gills look okay, the Golden Zebra Danios are supposed to look red, as I've seen of their pics. Hopefully someone can let me know if there could be a possible problem with gill parasites or if it looks normal.

....UUGGGh, apparently my pics are too big to fit here and I don't know how to resize

[CACAdmin]

You can use photobucket or one of the image resizers in this thread:How to Post Photos (http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showthread.php?t=492) . If you're still having problems posting the pics, PM me and I'll help.

[Tabby]

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1058.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1052.jpg
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1054.jpg

[OldMan]

Your pictures Tabby.
http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1058.jpg

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1052.jpg

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1054.jpg

I am no disease expert but at lest I can help with the pictures.

[GaryofMontreal]

There are a couple of diseases that are easy to diagnose because they're on the skin. After that, it gets difficult.
A lot of areas have banned aquarium antibiotics because people threw them into tanks with (unavoidably) no idea what they were treating. It's not something I'd suggest, as antibiotics are precious for our own survival, and we don't want to contribute to helping bacteria develop resistance any faster than they are already evolving to do.

So you're in a the new fishkeeper's bind. Your tank has gone really wrong and it's ruining the pleasure you should feel in fishkeeping. Bad luck like yours makes people leave the hobby, and that's a shame.

My suggestion is harsh. Change water religiously and ride it out. I really doubt gill parasites from what you describe. It sounds bacterial. It sounds like it's incubating in the fish and showing in a variety of ways (sores that look like bites, swim bladder problems, maybe red gills). Take care of the fish to give them a chance of fighting it off, minimize stress and medication, and hope your luck changes.

There is one other outside possibility that could cause these symptoms - ammonia. If your filter isn't working right and water changes are inadequate, what you're describing could be happening. In that case, the 'slow steady no meds' approach I suggested may work.

[Tabby]

After a very long time I finally got a pic though still not very good. Just came back from a weeks vacation in Florida and the sore on my Golden Zebra Danio is much bigger. It's gotten far worse than any of the others' but the fish seems to be doing much better, as the others got really lethargic before they died. Just wanted to know if anyone has any ideas about what is might be.

http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1168.jpg

[Tabby]

Oops, didn't work the first time........

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1168.jpg

[fan4guppy]

Oops, didn't work the first time........

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1168.jpg

The picture gives me more information I think this is some sort of internal parasite or bacterial infection. With the duration of time that this has been going I would suspect that the tank is quite infected with the problem.

With them being mostly tetras most medications can only be done in half dosage.

When did the problem first begin and how long has the aquarium been up?

Were all the fish put in at the same time into the aquarium?

If not, a fish carried this disease, parasite, bacterial infection into your tank (was there any symptoms that were noticable in that fish if this is the case) ?

I am sort of with Gary on this one though as you dont want to make the bacteria infection gain resistance to medications.

However Aquarium Salt is referred to as a preventative ... although with these being tetras I would only give a small dosage.

[Tabby]

Decided to euthanize my Golden Zebra Danio when I looked in the tank this evening to see what's pictured below as compard to what it looked like this morning, like pictured above. Went from looking like a missing chunk to looking like stuff coming out. While bacterial infection seems to be a common consensus, is it still possible that this was a fish attack as previously thought to be? I ask because just before I took the Danio out of the tank I had seen that Buenos Aires near and have witnessed it nip at my Rainbow, though without damage.

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1208.jpg

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Tabby1981/IMG_1210.jpg

[GaryofMontreal]

[quote=Tabby;91976] is it still possible that this was a fish attack as previously thought to be? I ask because just before I took the Danio out of the tank I had seen that Buenos Aires near and have witnessed it nip at my Rainbow, though without damage.


An attack could be the starter for an infection. I had six Buenos Aires in with cichlids and I gave them away because of the damage they did. It's a great fish, but even in the larger schools it should be kept in, it can be a hellion.
It's unfortunately really hard to say.

[fan4guppy]

Wounds through attacks do happen in nature as well as in the aquarium. It is hard to speculate that the wounds are causing death or the actual potential spread of disease either through Bacterial or Parasitic Infections.

With Bacterial diseases antibiotics are usually used but treatment for a disease without knowing what it may be could lead to the infection bacterial to become resistant to it.

This is part of the problems with diseases that they can actually get into human health issues too.

I know people that would say try an antibiotic but .. hard to say what this condition is caused by.

How many fish are left?

[Tabby]

I have three fish left; an Albino Buenos Aires, a White Skirt, and a Rainbow fish.

The Rainbow seems totally fine. Both the Albino and the White Skirt have clamped fins but are otherwise doing great as well. I definitely want to add more tank mates eventually and this time get all tetras, but I want to make sure that they'll live. Since of the nine I originally had (three each time with about 2 weeks in between additions) the three left now were the last three purchased, so I'm really unsure at the moment what to do.

[fan4guppy]

Have this situation go through its course.

The 2 fish with clamped fins are stressed and probably are infected by some disease. I would let this go until you know the tank is safe.

You may have to have it go its full course, bleach the tank, and start over. A good idea is to have a small quarantine tank. I use a product called Tetra parasite Guard and Salt during quarantining I do a 6 week does that was recommended by a rather well known breeder. Then I observe the fish and then add to my fish room.

However there are some bacterial infections that can go dormant for up to 6 months too..

You can only do so much in this regard.

[capnbrad]

ive had one of these mystery tank killing illnesses too, i had some luck with giving individual fish salt baths then putting them in a separate tank, after the fish are out i put half a gallon of bleach in my 40gal tank and let it run for almost a month. im not too sure what it was or if this was even the right way to go but i managed to save all the salted fish and did not have anymore deaths.. just make sure to clean out the bleach VERY thoroughly or you will just kill everything anyways.. hope this helps:CRY:

[Tabby]

If I do eventually have to bleach my tank, how would I clean the live plants?

[vince0]

mixed bleach solution, i think its either 10:1 water to bleach ratio, but i may be wrong, maybe someone can either confirm or deny what i just said.

[Tabby]

Haven't been on here in a while so I thought I'd up-date my fish situation.

Turns out there was no disease, just fish attacks, as the original Albino Buenos Aires and the White skirt are still alive. I'd also added a black skirt and Bleeding heart tetra over a month ago and another Black Skirt and a Red-eye tetra last weekend and all are doing great. So I've learned a rookie lesson and am only keeping tetras in this tank and in appropriate numbers.

[CACAdmin]

Glad to hear things have worked out and thanks for the update. As for lessons, each and every one of us (rookie or not) learns something new in this hobby almost every day.