Cichlid Quality

[Melody]

I was in a store today which apparently does not like Livebearers :wideeyed: , so I wandered around looking at the Cichlids, which they obviously do like because that's the majority of what they had.

Since I am almost completely ignorant when it comes to Cichlid quality, I don't want to name the store so as not to unfairly judge them. It made me curious though, to see one of those ... I can't believe the name just left me...lol...Frontosa? The ones that are blue with white stripes like Charles' avatar.... Sorry...

Anyways, there was a good size one there, much larger than the other Cichlids, I'd guess 6"+ with fins. He was priced at around $70 which seemed low to me. Is this a quality issue?

I know that one thing you need to watch for is unlabelled mutts, one of which I own so don't think I'm being snobby...lol....I'm just not breeding her - she's purely a pet. I did see some beautiful examples in the store of what she should be, and I can see the difference is amazing.

So obviously the store isn't dealing in 'garbage' or anything, it just made me wonder how one would ever know the difference if they weren't right into Cichlids already. Any basic suggestions for those new to Cichlid shopping? I'm sure it will help many people in the future.

Thanks!

[hp10BII]

Gee, great thoughts. I'm not a cichlid expert but I do like my rams and discus. It's something you develop an "eye" for over time and discussing with other fellow cichlid lovers, just like livebearers I'm sure. IMHO, the best thing is to go shopping with someone keeping the species that you like for a number of years, they would know which breeders/stores have the best rep for quality and $. Dedicated cichlid forums can be a goldmine of information especially if you're looking for show quality or A rated specimans.

I'm ordering some fish through a wholesaler that has connections to a hatchery in Europe that has an excellent reputation for health, quality and lines. I will be paying a little more, but it's worth it because you spend just as much time if not more looking after poor quality specimans vs good quality specimans.

[Melody]

Yes I can definitly relate to that. Good advice, thanks! I worry that the beautiful colors must be very tempting to people and I'm sure there's more to it than that. He did have some nice fish, very bright and healthy looking, it just seemed strange to see one that I know (or I think I know...lol) is expensive, at a lower price. However, it could have been the best specimen ever seen at the retail level for all I know, hence the reluctance to name a store.

I guess it depends on your purpose too. If you intend to breed them then the criteria is different quite often. If you intend to do the show circuit the criteria is that much different again. There are some beautiful Guppy strains that many breeders want, but the IFGA would laugh them off the show bench. All relative I guess. :smile:

Bringing someone with you is a good tip - its almost impossible to know everything you should know before you go shopping for a group of Cichlids it seems. Just when you think you've got it all down, you spot one that you didn't see info for and wonder if you can get it too. Life is SO unfair. :laugh: Even being experienced with fish in general doesn't prepare you for Cichlid shopping alone, in my opinion, unless you have more control than me and only buy what you planned to buy.

[hp10BII]

I don't know about other cichlids but if you don't see a colour or a pattern that you like on discus you could probably ask a breeder to make you some. Then it gets tempting to buy some of every strain. A bit of controversy using hormones to enhance colours and spots by mass breeders in Asia.

In the end though, when you think about it, it really doesn't matter...it's all about having some healthy, vibrant good looking fish, maybe that's why there seems to be a retro movement back to wild strain lines.

So which colour? Have a look at them live in as many tanks as possible so you can see what they look like in a home aquaria, not cramped in a LFS. Colours on the 'net are probably not true, so keep that in mind.

[Melody]

I think you should just give us your phone number....lol.

Discus - now there's a fish that I think most people want from the first time they see them. I wonder why they're not abused more? Price? Or maybe they die so quickly in those situations they aren't mentioned. That is 'abused' as in falling into the hands of those who don't know what they have, not intentional abuse exactly.

They're like dogs with me - I want one, but I know I don't want to put the work required into one, and I don't have room to do it properly. Such is life.

[hp10BII]

Actually I hear about the abuse quite often, but then I hang out in those 'other' forums. Discus are schooling fish, they're happiest in schools of 5 or more so that should warrant at least a 55 gallon tank. Because they are pricey and IMO overpriced in most LFS for the quality/health that they sell, people don't purchase discus in numbers to make a happy school. So quite often the tanks are too small/overcrowded, not enough water changes, fish are stressed and they wonder why their fish refuses to eat or pick up some sort of illness because their immunity system is low and wastes away.

They're actually tough fish, should live for 8+ years, but very labour intensive if you want to give yourself the best chance of growing up big, healthy, colourful fish.

[Melody]

Big healthy fish are the only option for me. If I can't do it right, I don't want to do it at all :smile: . I didn't know they were die-hard schoolers - that certainly does make a difference. Its one of those fish that I'd consider if I ever get out of breeding and have more time to devote to general fish care. They certainly can't be beat for beauty and their ability to attract attention.

[hp10BII]

It's possible to do 2 if you are lucky enough to have a matched pair. Juveniles seek security in numbers and there's a definite pecking order. If you have a bully in the group, it disperses the harrassment amongst many fins so not just 1 or 2 are constantly stressed.

Only problem with general fish care with discus is the natural progression to breeding them...:laugh:

[Melody]

LOL Yes I think I'm fooling myself into thinking that I wouldn't try to breed whatever I had. That's what keeps my interest in fish in the first place.

Hopefully those tempted by them & other Cichlids will do a search of the forum and find the suggestions here. :smile:

[Charles]

There are a few variants of frontosa... Here is an example...

Price by LFS
Burundi 2-3" - $19.99
Mpimbwe 2-3" - $44.99
Zaire blue 2-3" - $129.99

So, for a 6" Burundi, $70 is not a bad price for that in LFS.

Price by Breeder
Burundi - $5-$10
Mpimbwe - $15-$20
Zaire (Kitumba like mine) - $35-$40

[Melody]

I don't understand why everyone expects breeders to be less. They're almost always raised better and aren't exposed to the diseases that stores can do little to avoid entirely. I'd pay more for a privately bred fish personally.

The only thing I noticed about the one in the store is that the stripes weren't vivid white like yours. They had a greyish tinge. Maybe that was an age thing.

[Charles]

Breeder does not have overhead cost like LFS.

Greyish color might be stress of fish, poor ligthing... etc...

[Melody]

We buy everything at the retail level which costs a LOT, we raise the fish on premium foods, etc, which also costs a LOT.... per fish we pay far more, in my opinion/experience anyway. But then again, I spoil my fish rotten. :rolleyes:

Yes, could have been stress. He was in a small enclosure, which I assume was so he wouldn't eat the smaller fish....lol.

[Charles]

shops have overhead like rental, electric, water, stocks, assets, employees, advertisement, etc...

[Melody]

So do I....lol.

I see your point though. I guess as a hobbyist I'd just be more willing to pay for a home-raised fish.

[Charles]

So do I....lol.

I see your point though. I guess as a hobbyist I'd just be more willing to pay for a home-raised fish.

I agree. I see too many hybird, xbreed, defected fish sold in bulk to LFS. You still have to find good breeder though. Not everyone is equal.

[Melody]

Too true. I am happy to see the stores doing MUCH better in that regard though. They do buy blind and the bulk suppliers are limited in number, so I can sympathize. That's why I'd like to encourage stores and private breeders to work together, be it for buying their common Livebearers locally or hooking up with a respected Canadian Cichlid breeder.

If I saw a sign on a store tank saying something was privately bred, I'd be all over it even if it cost more than a tank of mass bred fish right beside it.:yes:

[Charles]

But the problem is anything can be labelled as private breeder stock.

Another thing, store who bought from private breeders can also get bad stocks. Usually the private breeder can't get rid of the fish or unwanted one, so those will be dumped to LFS.

Another thing, LFS needs to sell a much higher price to cover the overhead cost. Private breeder does not. So Private breeder will sell privately to hobbist for $5/fish, and to LFS. LFS now has to sell $15 or so to cover the expense. Now, the problem is that most now will buy from the breeder cause they can get them for $5/fish. You see how that goes...

[Melody]

Naaa, private breeders sell wholesale to stores too - that's all they'll pay. The store also doesn't have to pay for shipping the fish, and they can buy the fish with store credits, which REALLY saves them a lot because the credit is for retail prices, not what the store paid.

Yes, they could lie, but not if they named the breeder ;) . I don't think inferiority would be a problem, certainly not when compared to farm fish anyway.

[blainep]

If I saw a sign on a store tank saying something was privately bred, I'd be all over it even if it cost more than a tank of mass bred fish right beside it.:yes:

I have seen ( and was impressed by ) one of the LFS I frequent has noted on some tanks that the fish in that tank were from a local breeder.

[Melody]

Excellent! They wouldn't be so stressed from being shipping a zillion miles either. A win-win situation in most respects I think.

[fishenthusiast]

I often see tanks labelled as locally bred at my lfs. I must say I am more inclined to purchase those fish.

That particular store does love their local suppliers, I was able to sell them my juvie angels for $2 a fish. When I brought them in one of their wholesale suppliers was there. Even he mentioned how nice their finnage was. Needless to say my fish did not last long in his store, they were gone in less than a week.

Every time I purchase something from them they let me know that after I breed them, which is inevitable with me, to bring the fry back and they will purchase them. They have offered me both cash and credit. I of course get more per fish if I take the credits, which I almost always do.

Quality is difficult to achieve with chiclids as they have been mass produced, crossed, and inbred, just like a lot of commercial fish. To get true quality one usually has to go to a private breeder. That said, if more stores took locally bred fish from said breeders, the quality of fish sold in stores would increase. The downfall to that is if they have to pay cash for the fish, they will be more expensive, because like Melody pointed out, in order to have quality fish one must provide the best quality foods and care. This is absorbed by the customer in the form of higher prices for better fish.

[Melody]

Very good points. I think it depends on what they're buying. If they're buying show quality fish they're going to have to pay more and charge more. The thing is, most stores pay a percentage of resale value, so they're really not out anything by buying better quality. The problem would be if people didn't purchase them because they thought they could get the very same thing down the street for half the price. I think that's what scares the retailer most.

However, hobbyists educate themselves on quality in record time these days, due to the Internet, clubs, more books on the market, etc. There is a wide-open niche for quality fish. I don't know of any breeder, for example, who wouldn't pay a buck more for a higher quality fish to breed. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't pay a buck more for a healthy fish that has been less stressed from shipping, less chance of having a disease, stronger, etc.

There is more than one way to be competitive at the retail level. Price has been done to a degree that the smaller stores can't match, so they have compete on another level. A rep for healthy, superior fish could be very, very lucrative and it is already. I'd drive past 10 stores to get to that one store who offered me that. I'd even buy supplies there that I could get cheaper elsewhere, just to keep that store open.

I have to get after the stores & get them listed (free) in the merchant listing of who buys privately bred fish. That will attract breeders AND shoppers to their stores.:yes: